This episode of Dalton Plus Michael explores the concept of ZIRP (Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon) and its significant impact on the startup ecosystem. The hosts introduce the topic by humorously describing venture capital as a "sinkhole" where free-flowing money from zero interest rates ended up during a specific economic period.

"ZIRP... you gotta say it like that... Z-I-R-P... that is an acronym for zero interest rate phenomenon." - Dalton"

The conversation sets up a critical examination of how this economic policy created downstream effects that both hosts experienced firsthand in the venture capital and startup world.

ZIRP stands for Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon, referring to the period when the Federal Reserve in the United States set interest rates at zero. This economic situation occurred during the COVID pandemic and had far-reaching implications beyond traditional banking sectors.

"That's the period we lived through that ended as COVID was [ending]... the interest rate set by the Federal Reserve in the United States was Zero." - Dalton"

The hosts humorously acknowledge their limited expertise in economics while emphasizing their experiential knowledge as "victims" who witnessed the downstream effects of ZIRP on the startup ecosystem.

During the ZIRP period, banks could access money from the Federal Reserve essentially for free, creating a cascade effect throughout the financial system. This abundance of cheap money needed somewhere to go, as financial institutions searched for yield (returns higher than 0%).

"Banks had to put it somewhere and it was hard to find a place to get yield... so they dumped it into stuff like mortgages. This is why mortgage interest rates were so low." - Michael"

The hosts explain how this money ultimately flowed into alternative investment strategies, including real estate and particularly venture capital, which they colorfully describe as a "sinkhole" that "will consume any amount of money it is presented with."

The hosts use a vivid analogy comparing ZIRP's effect on the economy to America's corn subsidies, illustrating how artificially cheap resources create misaligned incentives and strange market behaviors.

"America subsidized corn and then suddenly everyone was motivated to figure out like what can we do with corn... can we use corn to make this, can we use corn to make that." - Dalton"

This comparison effectively demonstrates how excess capital led investors to throw money at startups regardless of whether they had product-market fit, viable business models, or sustainable strategies.

"Hey, you want money? We got money. I see a problem, let's put some money on it. Do you not have product-market fit? What if we throw some money at it? Are your margins negative? What if we threw money at it?" - Michael"

The ZIRP period attracted many inexperienced investors who inappropriately applied public market investment frameworks to early-stage startups, creating fundamentally flawed valuation approaches.

"There was one firm we interacted with who was like, 'Well, you would value Public Market companies using this rubric... companies generating like 500 million plus in Revenue... we will just downsize that rubric to companies generating a million dollars in Revenue because they're both companies.'" - Michael"

The hosts explain why this approach was problematic - early-stage companies have dramatically higher failure rates than public companies, making such comparisons fundamentally unsound. Many of these investors disappeared once interest rates rose again, revealing their opportunistic rather than strategic approach.

The hosts challenge the assumption that more capital automatically leads to better outcomes for startups, highlighting the counterintuitive truth that excessive funding often undermines the very advantages startups have over incumbents.

"If money was the only variable to making your company work, startups wouldn't work because all the incumbents have way more money. Apple has all the money, effectively." - Dalton"

"When you give money to someone, they stop innovating and they start spending more money. Why do we have to have better software? We can just hire more people to fill in the blanks." - Michael"

The discussion frames excess capital as "poison" that kills the constraint-driven innovation that makes startups effective, though they acknowledge that some founders were able to use the capital effectively.

The ZIRP era caused a proliferation of "unicorn" startups (valued at $1 billion or more), completely changing what was once a rare designation into a common marketing milestone.

"Remember when unicorns used to be rare? That was, I think, why they were called that. The name was meant to be a rare, infrequently sighted thing, as unicorns are rare and infrequently sighted. That ended." - Dalton"

"We would see them on a weekly basis... it was a marketing thing. I'll give you a billion dollar valuation and you can be a unicorn." - Michael"

The segment concludes with an anecdote about a company valued at a 350X revenue multiple ($3 million revenue, $1 billion valuation), highlighting the extreme disconnection between business fundamentals and valuations during this period.

• ZIRP (Zero Interest Rate Phenomenon) created a massive flow of capital into venture funding as investors sought returns above 0%
• Venture capital functioned as a "sinkhole" that could absorb unlimited amounts of this excess capital
• Many new, inexperienced investors entered the startup funding space, applying inappropriate valuation methods from public markets
• Excess funding often hurts startups by removing the constraints that drive innovation and efficient operations
• The "unicorn" designation went from rare to common, with companies reaching billion-dollar valuations on minimal revenue
• Many ZIRP-era investors disappeared when interest rates rose again, showing they were opportunistic rather than strategic
• The most successful founders understood how to use capital effectively without letting it undermine their advantages

While many founders and investors were caught up in the ZIRP euphoria, some saw warning signs that this era of abundant capital wouldn't last forever. The hosts reflect on their attempts to caution founders during this period about the risks of becoming dependent on unsustainable funding conditions.

"This is not going to last... we were definitely advising Founders that the music would probably stop. Something about what was going on felt like ZIRP... this zero interest rate thing... Let's not count on it lasting." - Michael"

The hosts recommended founders make strategic decisions to prepare for the "winter" that would eventually come, though many founders rejected this advice, believing the boom times would continue indefinitely or even accelerate further.

Michael draws a parallel to the 1990s tech boom, noting that while not an exact replica (as it happened primarily in private markets rather than public ones), the patterns of irrational exuberance were strikingly similar.

The ZIRP era created particularly favorable conditions for lending businesses, which could access capital at virtually no cost and then lend it out at higher interest rates, creating seemingly easy profits.

"Because money was so cheap, lending companies made a lot of sense... if your cost of capital is very low and you just lend it a lot, boom it works." - Michael"

The hosts humorously note that "money has product-market fit always," explaining how many startups positioned themselves as lending platforms for various industries or use cases, mistaking the natural demand for capital as validation of their business model or product innovation.

"We're product geniuses! Unbelievable that people want this money thing that only we have and it's very defensible." - Dalton"

However, when interest rates rose again, these businesses faced a critical challenge as their cost of capital increased dramatically, making their models much less viable. Many found it difficult to pass these higher costs on to customers, resulting in an entire category of startups suddenly facing existential challenges.

The hosts categorize venture capitalists during the ZIRP era into three distinct groups based on their awareness of and response to the market distortion:

The first group denied any problem existed, believing they were providing "very real valuations" during what they viewed as a legitimate "Tech Heyday." These investors seemed genuinely convinced that the extreme valuations were justified.

The second group privately acknowledged the market was broken but continued participating anyway. As Michael describes it:

"I know this is screwed up but I'm going to do it anyways... if you get me in a room in private I'm going to be like eight of the last deals I did I priced really dumb, but you know my LPs are cool." - Michael"

The third and smallest group took the contrarian approach of holding their capital, recognizing that traditional investment wisdom suggests buying when assets are undervalued, not overvalued. The hosts note that these disciplined investors were ultimately rewarded for their patience when the market corrected.

The hosts also reflect on their own role in the ecosystem during this time, acknowledging the challenges while explaining how YC's standard deal structure provided some insulation from valuation distortions, even as their demo days became "crazy" auction environments.

Despite the market frenzy, the hosts emphasized to founders the importance of focusing on fundamentals and building businesses that could withstand economic cycles.

"The Key to Greatness is to build a great business... we really believe this stuff. We were advising people even at the height of the stuff, 'Hey everyone, don't pay attention to all this noise. Try to build something enduring.'" - Michael"

They stressed the futility of trying to time market conditions, pointing out that startups typically take a decade to build, making current economic conditions relatively irrelevant to long-term success:

"Trying to time the market is like the silliest thing of all time because you need 10 years. What will the market look like 10 years from now? Different." - Dalton"

The hosts explain that they consistently advised startups that current economic conditions, however extreme, would likely have minimal impact on companies that were just beginning their journey, encouraging founders to focus on creating sustainable value rather than chasing momentary advantages.

When interest rates rose and the ZIRP era ended, the true impact of founders' capital management decisions became apparent. The hosts observed two distinct outcomes among companies that had raised substantial funding during the boom:

"Some companies, they took that capital and like they can run their business profitably, they don't have to raise another round until they IPO. Those Founders were very smart." - Michael"

In contrast, other founders rapidly depleted their capital and found themselves in crisis when the market turned:

"Other Founders, they spent that money. And it's sad because if you build your business around an unsustainable phenomenon, and then that phenomenon goes away, what happens to your business?" - Michael"

They compare this dependency on artificially cheap capital to "platform risk on the Fed," noting that businesses built on the assumption of endless low-interest funding faced existential challenges when economic conditions changed:

"Your business only worked when there was nowhere else to invest in the universe. The second there's anything better to invest in, immediately all the money will come out." - Dalton"

Even as the market corrects, the hosts note that some sectors still exhibit "zerie qualities" with high valuations and abundant funding. They suggest that regardless of market conditions, founders should maintain a careful balance of optimism and realism:

"As a Founder your job is to just balance optimism with realism... and be exactly on the right balance level." - Dalton"

The most successful founders maintained this balance even during peak ZIRP conditions – they took advantage of available capital while recognizing the situation was temporary and planning accordingly.

The hosts conclude with self-deprecating humor about their attempt to explain complex economic phenomena despite their backgrounds being primarily in technology rather than finance.

"So there you go, that's ZIRP, zero interest rate phenomenon, and here are two highly trained... economists. We could build you a website." - Michael"

"It's like The Big Short movie where they have all these actors explaining to you how the '08 crisis happened. I could write some python code if anyone... I can write python, anyone out there that wants, we can make really good box." - Dalton"

This lighthearted finale reinforces their earlier disclaimer that they're approaching these financial topics from the perspective of entrepreneurs and investors who experienced the effects firsthand, rather than as economic experts.

• The hosts warned founders that the ZIRP conditions were temporary, though many refused to believe the "winter" would come
• Lending businesses were particularly vulnerable to interest rate changes, as their entire business model depended on cheap capital
• Money naturally has "product-market fit" - startups offering loans mistook this for validation of their unique value proposition
• VCs during ZIRP fell into three categories: those who believed valuations were justified, those who knew it was problematic but participated anyway, and a small group who held their capital waiting for a correction
• Founders who treated the abundant capital as a one-time opportunity to secure their future fared better than those who built businesses dependent on continuous cheap funding
• Building startups that can thrive in poor economic conditions creates companies that excel when times are good
• The dependency on zero interest rates created an equivalent of "platform risk" for many startups - their business models collapsed when the underlying economic conditions changed
• The most successful founders maintained a balance of optimism and realism, taking advantage of available capital while planning for its inevitable disappearance
• Trying to time market conditions is futile for early-stage startups, as building a successful company typically requires a decade, spanning multiple economic cycles