Aditya Agrawal introduces the concept of "minus one to zero" - the critical phase where founders decide what to work on before launching. This podcast explores the journey of those who've had to answer the question "what's next?" in their lives.

The episode features Bhavish Aggarwal, co-founder and CEO of Ola, alongside Prateek Mehta, founding partner for South Park Commons India. Bhavish immediately connects with the concept of "minus one," noting that "life begins at minus one" - a unique perspective compared to the common startup phases of "0 to 1" or "1 to 10."

"Actually life begins at minus one,"

Timestamp: [1:01-1:55]

Bhavish shares his journey from a traditional middle-class Indian background to founding Ola. Born to doctor parents who wanted him to become a professional, he studied at IIT Bombay (where Prateek was his senior) and graduated in 2008. After working at Microsoft Research for two years, he gained a solid foundation in technology and science.

During the late 2000s and early 2010s, Bhavish witnessed what he calls the "Indian dream" experiencing a renaissance period. This was a time when startups were just beginning to emerge in India, with companies like Flipkart recently founded and traditional enterprises starting to scale beyond their sectors.

"I had a very typical Indian childhood, middle class Indian childhood. Parents were doctors, they wanted me to study hard and become a professional in my life."

As a 24-year-old in this environment, Bhavish felt compelled to be part of this emerging Indian dream rather than "waste life working for a large Global MNC." This sense of purpose drove his minus one journey, leading him to found Ola in 2010, starting with what he humorously describes as what "every 24-year-old knows how to do best - build an app," which was quite novel at the time.

Timestamp: [1:56-4:22]

As Bhavish developed Ola into India's largest ride-hailing company throughout the last decade, he experienced a common entrepreneurial journey of self-discovery. Like many founders, he learned more about himself and his deeper purpose as the business evolved.

Two key passions emerged that continue to drive him: the Indian dream and technology. The Indian dream has become clearer over time, especially with Prime Minister Narendra Modi's vision for a developed "Viksit Bharat" by 2047—a vision Bhavish deeply connects with personally.

"As we proceed on our journey, we learn more about ourselves and we learn more about the purpose which we feel inside but maybe can't articulate as well in our early days."

His love for technology runs deep—he reflects that had he not become an entrepreneur, he would likely have been a university professor. This passion spans horizontally across sectors and has guided the evolution of the Ola group into multiple technology domains.

Today, the Ola group encompasses three large companies:

1. Consumer tech - the original ride-hailing company
2. EV technology - India's largest EV company making vehicles, lithium cells, and battery storage technologies
3. AI - their most recent venture building full-stack AI solutions

Aditya shares that visiting Ola's factories was one of his highlights of 2024, noting not just the impressive technical aspects but the pride he felt seeing the scale of operations and the workforce involved.

Timestamp: [4:22-6:34]

Aditya highlights how being an entrepreneur in India has transformed from a rebellious act to something socially celebrated. Back in 2010, starting a company required going against social norms, unlike today when entrepreneurship is considered "sexy."

Bhavish reflects on how starting up in 2010 India was even more taboo than elsewhere. His parents were worried he was throwing away his career by not following the typical middle-class Indian path of going to the US for a PhD or MBA. He shares a particularly revealing cultural insight about their concerns:

"One of their worries was obviously am I throwing up my career... and one of the worries also was that how will this boy get married now? Who will marry him?"

This genuine parental concern illustrates how far India has evolved in its entrepreneurial culture. Today, Bhavish observes with humor, "If you're not starting up, you're not cool enough," noting that entrepreneurship has become so desirable that "no matter whether your startup is successful or not, you'll find a very nice wife."

Aditya jokingly responds that apart from Mark Zuckerberg, "the real reason I joined the startup was to marry Ruchi Sanghvi," highlighting how everyone might have their "hidden reasons" for entrepreneurship.

Timestamp: [6:34-8:59]

Bhavish describes his decision to start Ola as fundamentally instinctive rather than calculated. While many associate entrepreneurship with pursuits of fame or money, he believes these rationalizations typically come after the fact. The true driver is an instinctual connection to a higher purpose.

"The decision to start up was actually a very instinctive one... You feel like connect with a certain higher purpose. For me that higher purpose was the Indian dream."

He felt a "gravitational pull" or "magnetic pull" toward contributing to India's development story, despite concerns from friends and family in 2010. The timing is particularly noteworthy as even Uber was still very small then.

Bhavish's initial vision was modest and organic—not "building the Uber for India" but simply creating a website for cabs. This concept was so novel that his friends couldn't grasp it, often confusing him with a taxi driver. His response was pragmatic:

"Let me first build it then I'll talk to you guys."

This reflection showcases both how far India's startup ecosystem has evolved and Bhavish's growth as an entrepreneur from those early days.

Timestamp: [8:59-10:18]

• The "minus one" stage is crucial in entrepreneurship—it's where founders decide what to work on before launching
• The late 2000s and early 2010s represented a renaissance period for the "Indian dream" as startups began emerging
• Entrepreneurship in India evolved from a taboo career choice in 2010 to something socially celebrated and "sexy" today
• Bhavish's journey was driven by two key passions: contributing to the Indian dream and his love for technology
• The decision to start a company is often instinctive rather than calculated, connecting to a higher purpose before rationalizations about fame or money
• Parental concerns about marriage prospects for entrepreneurs reflected the cultural context of starting up in 2010 India
• The Ola group has expanded from ride-hailing to include electric vehicles and AI, demonstrating Bhavish's cross-sector technological interests
• Entrepreneurs often discover their deeper purpose through the journey rather than having complete clarity at the start

Timestamp: [1:01-10:18]

Educational Institutions:

• IIT Bombay - Bhavish's alma mater, described as "one of the best engineering colleges in India"

Companies:

• Microsoft Research - Where Bhavish worked for two years after graduation, gaining grounding in technology and research
• Flipkart - Mentioned as an example of Indian startups emerging around 2010, founded by Sachin and Binny Bansal
• Tatas - Referenced as traditional Indian enterprise starting to scale beyond their sectors
• Reliance - Referenced as traditional Indian enterprise starting to scale beyond their sectors
• Uber - Mentioned as being "very very small" when Ola was founded in 2010

People:

• Narendra Modi - India's Prime Minister, referenced for his vision of "Viksit Bharat" (developed India) by 2047
• Mark Zuckerberg - Mentioned jokingly in context of entrepreneurship motivations
• Ruchi Sanghvi - Mentioned jokingly by Aditya as his reason for joining a startup

Concepts:

• The Indian Dream - A recurring theme in Bhavish's motivation, similar to the American Dream but in Indian context
• Viksit Bharat - Vision for a developed India by 2047, associated with PM Modi's governance
• Minus One to Zero - The podcast's core concept about the pre-launch decision phase in entrepreneurship

Timestamp: [1:01-10:18]

Prateek asks Bhavish about his mental model for making the leap from minus one to zero, especially with bets that have worked out spectacularly well and others that haven't panned out as imagined. He also inquires about how Bhavish has evolved as a leader.

Bhavish acknowledges significant evolution in his approach and mental models over the past decade and a half. When first starting Ola, his approach was intuitive and consumer-focused: identifying a personal need for taxis in India led to creating a taxi solution, which was then built deeper into the industry.

Now, from his current vantage point, he can understand broader technological themes deeply and recognizes a critical "fork in the road" moment for India – whether to be part of the technology future or miss another revolution.

"Unfortunately in the last couple of centuries [India has] missed a few revolutions. We missed the first Industrial Revolution and we got colonized. We missed the subsequent innovations of the information age in the late 1800s, early 1900s. We largely missed the manufacturing globalization the last few decades."

Bhavish notes that while India built the IT services ecosystem and became a talent hub, the country now faces a crucial moment to participate in major technological revolutions.

Timestamp: [10:24-12:27]

Bhavish outlines his mental model for India's future and technology, emphasizing India's global significance as home to one in five people worldwide. He argues that as India develops, its relevance to the world increases, serving as a microcosm for the rest of the developing world including Africa, Southeast Asia, and Latin America.

"India is 20% of the world... one in five people are Indians. There are a lot of us and we need to make ourselves useful to the world."

He identifies two major technology platform revolutions that are currently unfolding:

1. AI and its linked ecosystems (robotics, humanoids, medical applications) - currently led by the US, with India needing to find its place

2. The revolution in energy - including electric vehicles, battery storage, lithium technology, hydrogen, and nuclear power - currently led by China

These two revolutions are converging and influencing each other. AI requires significant energy resources (as seen in US debates around electricity), while energy is increasingly becoming technology-driven rather than commodity-based, requiring material science that AI can help advance.

Bhavish sees India as having the relevance, talent, and market size to become a major part of this technological future, which has become his life's mission - to participate in the Indian dream through the lens of future technologies.

Timestamp: [12:27-15:22]

Reflecting on his journey building multiple ventures, Bhavish shares his evolving approach from consumer-focused problem-solving to platform building for the Indian ecosystem. He acknowledges the validity of his earlier consumer-centric mental model while recognizing how his perspective has broadened.

"When I was 10 years younger the mental model was simple: as a consumer what problem do I feel in daily life. By the way, that's a great mental model. In the end, the consumer is at the heart of any innovation you do."

His most significant learning from both successes and failures reveals a pattern:

"My biggest learning actually has been whenever I've tried to do things with just a 'me too' perspective, we've always failed. Whereas when we've tried to bring a next generation approach to doing things or a next technological innovation to doing things, we've always succeeded."

This insight aligns with what he describes as "the rules of the universe" - attempts to catch up to others due to vanity or ego typically fail, while bringing something new, a "secret sauce," or unique value to the conversation tends to succeed.

Aditya agrees that this perspective resonates with his own experience, noting that post-facto it's easy to construct a narrative thread through one's life, but in the moment, decisions are often driven by a combination of instinct and intuition rather than pure rationality.

Timestamp: [15:22-17:08]

Aditya observes that starting a company is often not rational, yet many founders struggle to listen to their instincts because they seek a rational through-line. He acknowledges Bhavish's pattern of success when taking big leaps forward rather than creating "me too" products, and asks about the balance between rationality and instinct in his decision-making process.

Bhavish delves into philosophical terrain, suggesting that modern life overemphasizes rationality while undervaluing instinct:

"In our modern life, we overestimate rationality and underestimate instinct and gut."

He attributes this imbalance to Western philosophical traditions placing rationality on a high pedestal. While acknowledging rationality's importance, he contrasts it with Hindu and Indian philosophical perspectives that recognize the limitations of our five senses in experiencing the universe's energy.

"Our five senses need not be complete in experiencing the energy of the universe... There's so much quantum energy out there which we cannot perceive with our senses."

Bhavish connects traditional Indian practices like yoga, meditation, and the chakra system to accessing universal energy beyond the five senses. He suggests that what we call "gut and instinct" in English might simply be feeling the energy around us in ways we can't explain rationally.

"Many times the universe tells you what to do and you just need to do it. You're an instrument of the universe in that sense, instead of you being the captain of the boat rowing against the tide."

This perspective contrasts with individualistic narratives common in Western thought, positioning oneself as an instrument of the universe rather than its master.

Timestamp: [17:08-20:33]

Bhavish explains how his philosophical outlook on instinct and universal connection doesn't conflict with a rational, technology-focused perspective. Instead, he sees them as complementary approaches to understanding progress and value creation.

"This kind of articulation is not at odds with a rational technology perspective because I think one of the truths of the universe is that technology only improves and technology only moves forward."

He articulates a clear theory of economic value, suggesting that its creation is fundamentally tied to technological advancement:

"The only way to create economic value for a society is by adopting new technology... What is economic value? It's only the growth of productivity. New economic value and productivity growth happens with new technologies."

Bhavish reveals that his decisions are driven by gut and instinct, qualities he has honed over the years. However, he acknowledges the delicate balance required in leadership:

"Over the years I've learned to hone it better. I've learned to understand when as a founder you can have your whims and say 'oh, my whims are my gut and my team should listen to it' - that's actually just vanity and ego."

Aditya agrees, noting "it's a fine line" between genuine intuition and ego-driven impulses disguised as instinct - a nuanced distinction that leaders must learn to recognize.

Timestamp: [20:33-21:27]

• When starting businesses, Bhavish's approach has evolved from solving immediate consumer problems to building platforms that catalyze the entire Indian ecosystem
• India faces a crucial "fork in the road" moment: becoming a key player in technological revolutions or missing them as it has previous industrial and information revolutions
• Two major technology platform revolutions are unfolding globally: AI ecosystems (led by the US) and energy revolution (led by China)
• These technological revolutions are converging and reinforcing each other - AI requires energy, while energy technologies benefit from AI advancements
• Bhavish has discovered that ventures focusing on next-generation approaches and innovative technology consistently succeed, while "me too" products typically fail
• Modern society overemphasizes rationality while undervaluing instinct and gut feelings, which may represent our connection to energies beyond our five senses
• Indian philosophical traditions offer perspectives on connecting with universal energy that complement rather than contradict technological rationality
• Economic value creation fundamentally comes from technological advancement and productivity growth
• Leaders must distinguish between genuine intuition and ego-driven whims masquerading as "gut feelings"

Timestamp: [10:24-21:27]

Philosophical Concepts:

• Hindu/Indian Philosophy - Referenced in discussion of instinct versus rationality and connection to universal energy
• Western Philosophy - Mentioned for its emphasis on rationality and logical thought
• Chakra System - Indian concept of energy centers in the body, mentioned as a way to connect to universal energy
• Yoga & Meditation - Practices that help open one to "the energy of the universe"

Technology Domains:

• Artificial Intelligence (AI) - Identified as one of two major technological revolutions happening globally
• Robotics - Mentioned as part of the AI ecosystem
• Humanoids - Referenced as an extension of AI developments
• Electric Vehicles (EVs) - Described as an application of energy technology revolution
• Battery Energy Storage - Important component of energy revolution
• Grid Storage - Energy technology component
• Lithium Technology - Key element in energy revolution
• Hydrogen - Mentioned as part of energy technology revolution
• Nuclear Energy - Referenced as part of energy technology revolution

Economic Concepts:

• Productivity Growth - Described as the source of economic value
• Technological Innovation - Framework for understanding successful ventures vs. failed ones

Timestamp: [10:24-21:27]

Aditya reflects on the nature of AI models, noting that their intelligence is an emergent property that we don't fully understand. He contrasts Western philosophical approaches with a more pragmatic perspective on AI capabilities.

"These AI models are intrinsically we have no idea why they work. Their intelligence is an emergent property."

He observes that Western philosophy seems caught in debates about whether AI systems are truly intelligent, while his own view is more straightforward – they demonstrate capabilities that appear intelligent, and that utility doesn't require complete understanding.

"They seem very capable and intelligent. I don't need to understand it in order to appreciate it."

Aditya suggests that Western philosophical traditions struggle with not being "the principal agent in the room" – essentially, with the idea that intelligence might exist outside human understanding or control.

This perspective opens a deeper conversation about the nature of intelligence, consciousness, and how different philosophical traditions might approach these emerging questions in the age of AI.

Timestamp: [21:33-22:06]

Bhavish offers what he calls a "very simplistic mental model" on the debate around AI consciousness and intelligence, beginning with the fundamental question of definitions.

"Firstly we need to define intelligence or we need to define consciousness."

He presents a logical framework: if consciousness can be defined in any language – whether words, mathematics, or physics – then AI models could potentially learn its data patterns. However, if consciousness cannot be described, then AI cannot learn it.

"If you can define consciousness in words or in any kind of language – words, mathematics, physics, whatever – then you can have an AI model learn the data patterns of it. But if consciousness cannot be described, then AI can't learn it."

Bhavish suggests that humans themselves are still grappling with understanding consciousness – we haven't properly defined it because it's not merely something to be explained but something to be experienced.

"We as humans are still coming to terms with our consciousness. We don't know what it is. There's no proper definition of consciousness because it's also not just explained but experienced."

This distinction between explanation and experience forms a critical point in considering what makes consciousness unique and potentially inaccessible to artificial systems.

Timestamp: [22:06-22:53]

Aditya expands on Bhavish's point about consciousness as experience by highlighting the multimodal nature of human perception and processing. He suggests that humans receive data not just through the traditional five senses but also internally from our organs and bodily systems.

"Human beings in some ways, the amount of multimodal data that we're taking in is not just through the five senses but it is literally through our body as well. We are actually getting data from our organs, from our internal representation that we are feeding into whatever model that we have in our brain."

This perspective frames human consciousness as operating on a much richer and more complex set of inputs than current AI systems can access. Aditya argues we should be comfortable acknowledging that our bodies are "incredibly multimodal" – processing information in ways more diverse than what we can currently feed into computer systems.

"We are capable of processing all of this in a slightly different higher dimensionality way."

This recognition of human processing as fundamentally different from machine learning models offers a nuanced way to think about consciousness without simply questioning whether AI is "truly intelligent" or not.

Timestamp: [22:53-23:30]

Aditya suggests that as we progress further into the AI era, we will likely develop a greater appreciation for Eastern philosophical traditions and their approaches to consciousness and existence.

"As we go further down this AI world, I think we will actually gain a much finer appreciation for a lot of the Eastern philosophies and their way of thinking about the world and what it means to be a conscious higher being."

He proposes that these Eastern perspectives may offer insights that "Western theology or Western philosophy" cannot adequately explain. Bhavish strongly agrees with this assessment, suggesting that this moment represents an opportunity for philosophy itself.

"I think this is a great time for philosophy."

Bhavish observes that innovation and advancement in philosophy diminished over the last century as society became increasingly focused on rationality. Aditya characterizes recent Western philosophy as essentially "applied mathematics," suggesting it lost touch with deeper spiritual questions.

Both agree that the rise of AI is prompting a philosophical renaissance, necessitating a return to fundamental questions about consciousness and humanity's relationship to intelligence. They note that many leading scientists from the mid-20th century were "fairly deep into Indian philosophies," suggesting a historical precedent for this cross-cultural philosophical exchange.

Timestamp: [23:30-24:34]

Bhavish suggests that AI will prompt humanity to confront profound questions about consciousness – how to understand it, engage with it, and potentially enhance it. However, he shifts the conversation to address a more immediate concern: the impact of AI on employment.

"Right now people worry about the impact of AI on jobs. Actually I think that's not the most relevant debate."

He predicts that countries, companies, and economies will need to address the changing nature of employment, but expresses confidence that market forces will eventually establish a new equilibrium. As long as the economy maintains productivity and wealth creation, society will find mechanisms to distribute that income – whether through traditional employment or alternative means.

"Market forces will settle somewhere in the end. As long as there is productivity in the economy, there is value creation or wealth creation, and then there could be either jobs or some way of distributing that income through government measures, UBI or whatever."

Bhavish believes society will discover a new equilibrium in economic management, noting that our post-industrial lives have been largely defined by employment and productive activity. This transition, while challenging, may ultimately unleash new forms of human creativity.

"Our lives in the post-industrial era have been defined by a job or by doing something. So that is the real thing which will bring a lot more creativity out of humanity, I feel."

This perspective frames AI disruption not merely as an economic challenge but as a potential catalyst for reimagining human purpose and creativity.

Timestamp: [24:34-25:36]

• AI intelligence is emergent and not fully understood, challenging Western philosophical frameworks that require complete understanding and control
• If consciousness can be defined in language (words, mathematics, physics), AI could potentially learn its patterns; if not, it remains inaccessible to AI
• Humans process multimodal data not just through the five senses but through our entire bodies, operating at a higher dimensionality than current AI systems
• The AI era may bring renewed appreciation for Eastern philosophical traditions that have different approaches to consciousness and intelligence
• Philosophy experienced a decline in the past century as society became increasingly focused on rationality and "applied mathematics"
• Leading scientists of the mid-20th century often engaged deeply with Indian philosophies, suggesting a historical precedent for this philosophical exchange
• Current debates about AI's impact on jobs will likely resolve through market forces and new economic equilibriums
• As long as productivity and value creation continue, societies will find ways to distribute income, whether through traditional employment or alternatives like UBI
• The redefinition of human purpose beyond traditional employment may ultimately unleash new forms of creativity and fulfillment

Timestamp: [21:33-25:36]

Philosophical Concepts:

• Consciousness - Central discussion topic regarding its definability and whether AI can possess it
• Eastern Philosophies - Referenced as potentially offering better frameworks for understanding consciousness than Western traditions
• Western Philosophy/Theology - Criticized for inadequacy in explaining consciousness and overemphasis on rationality
• Indian Philosophies - Mentioned as having influenced mid-20th century scientists

Scientific/Technological Concepts:

• Artificial Intelligence (AI) - Discussed regarding its emergent properties and societal impact
• Multimodal Data - Referenced in context of human perception and processing beyond the five senses
• Emergent Properties - Term used to describe how intelligence manifests in AI systems

Economic Concepts:

• Universal Basic Income (UBI) - Mentioned as potential mechanism for wealth distribution in AI-driven economy
• Market Forces - Referenced regarding economic equilibrium in future job markets
• Productivity - Discussed as the foundation of economic value creation

Historical References:

• Post-Industrial Era - Referenced in context of how jobs have defined human identity
• Middle of Last Century - Period when leading scientists engaged with Indian philosophies
• Last 100 Years - Timeframe when philosophy allegedly declined into "applied mathematics"

Timestamp: [21:33-25:36]

Aditya introduces Krutrim as Bhavish's latest "minus one" effort that has now become "a big thing," asking him to explain the vision and goals behind it.

Bhavish articulates a clear and ambitious mission for Krutrim:

"Our purpose with Krutrim is to make India the most productive economy in the world through deploying AI across the country."

He emphasizes that understanding Krutrim requires understanding the Indian context, which differs significantly from Western or Chinese contexts. India is currently a $4 trillion economy with a per capita GDP of about $2,500, compared to the US as a $30 trillion economy with a per capita GDP of $80,000.

Beyond these raw numbers, Bhavish highlights a critical metric: the penetration of compute in the economy. Software exists to amplify human productivity, yet India's consumption of computing resources remains drastically lower than developed economies:

"US has a $500 billion software and computing market revenue. India has a $20-30 billion software revenue market. As a percentage of GDP, India's software market or computing market is about 0.5%. US is 2%. Per capita, India consumes about $10 of compute every year. US consumes about $1,000 of compute every year. So 100x."

This disparity illustrates how previous waves of computerization and software development have not effectively penetrated the Indian economy, creating both a challenge and an opportunity for AI-driven transformation.

Timestamp: [25:42-27:30]

Bhavish explains how AI is poised to transform India's economic trajectory by addressing key barriers that have limited software adoption in the country.

"AI is going to change all of that. AI is going to make cost of software much lower, cost of producing software much lower. AI is going to make the ability of using software much easier for the average Indian because the average Indian is not a programmer. It is going to solve the language barrier in the Indian economy."

He frames AI as a turning point that could dramatically accelerate India's economic growth. Currently, India's GDP grows at 7-8% annually, but Bhavish believes AI deployment could push growth to 12-15% per year – similar to how China leveraged manufacturing outsourcing over the past few decades to achieve rapid growth.

"If we deploy AI faster, we can grow 12 to 15% a year."

This acceleration would profoundly impact India's future prosperity. Bhavish presents a compelling numerical projection: by 2047 (India's 100th year of independence, about 23-24 years away), an 8% growth rate would bring India's economy to approximately $20-25 trillion. At 10%, it would reach $30-35 trillion. But at 12%, India could achieve a $50 trillion economy.

"20 trillion versus 50 trillion outcome is a 8% versus 12% growth rate compounded for 25 years."

The difference between these scenarios – enabled by AI – represents a vastly different future for India and its population.

Timestamp: [27:30-29:08]

Bhavish argues that realizing AI's potential in India requires rethinking the technology from first principles, rather than simply importing Western models. He explains why India has historically seen lower software and computing penetration:

"Today there is a reason India has less penetration of software and computing because it's a Western paradigm, Western cost structures, Western product propositions brought into India by leading iconic companies like Microsoft or Google, etc., but it's not relevant for India in many ways."

The challenges are multifaceted: computing costs are too high for India's economic reality, and existing AI systems don't adequately address Indian languages, contexts, knowledge systems, or cultural ethos.

Krutrim's approach is to build AI across the entire stack, starting with models specifically designed for Indian realities:

"We are not going to compete with an OpenAI by building a generalized large language model in terms of a trillion parameters or more, but we are going to focus on building AI models for the Indian reality, be it language, be it different kind of multimodality, different data sets."

The company has already launched its first model, which Bhavish claims was "the best performing Indian indic language model," with a second model set to launch by the end of the month. The goal is to continue improving until AI becomes truly production-ready for Indian applications, languages, and contexts.

Timestamp: [29:08-30:40]

Bhavish identifies infrastructure as the second crucial layer in Krutrim's strategy, encompassing cloud systems, energy, and cooling technologies. He highlights a critical issue of data sovereignty that affects India's AI future:

"India produces the largest amount of digital data in the world because India's the largest population in the world. It's very simple – data creation is linked to population scale until you do synthetic data. Synthetic data is linked to compute scale, but other data is just linked to population scale."

Thanks to India's telecom revolution, its citizens are highly active online. However, Bhavish points to a concerning pattern in how this data is currently handled:

"We generate the largest amount of digital data in the world, but we don't own our data. We don't store our data in India. 90% of our data is stored outside India, processed into AI, and brought back into India and sold to us in dollars."

He makes a striking historical comparison: "It's the same East India Company all over again," referencing the British trading company that eventually led to colonial rule in India.

Despite this concern, Bhavish emphasizes a market-based approach to addressing the challenge:

"It's a global world, it's a capitalistic world. So we have to not build trade barriers or policy barriers, we have to actually out-innovate and out-compete for the Indian market."

This perspective frames data sovereignty not as a protectionist issue, but as an innovation and competitive challenge that India must address through better technology and infrastructure.

Timestamp: [30:40-31:41]

Bhavish highlights the paradox of India's tremendous technical talent that largely serves global markets rather than building solutions for domestic needs:

"India has the largest number of developers in the world, but how many of them are really building applications for India? Many of them are just part of global MNC centers in India building for the West."

This pattern extends beyond software to hardware design as well:

"India has the largest number of silicon designers in the world. Every chip passes through India – not physically, but its IP is engineered in India – but there's no Indian chip."

These observations underscore a fundamental disconnect: despite India's significant advantages in computing talent and scale, these resources have not been effectively channeled toward solving Indian problems or building Indian technological sovereignty.

Krutrim aims to address this gap by bringing together India's advantages to target opportunities within India itself:

"Krutrim's mission is to bring these advantages of India together to attack the opportunity of India so that we can really amplify economic growth in India."

The approach is comprehensive, spanning three layers: AI models (the first layer), infrastructure (the second layer), and chip design (the third layer). Bhavish mentions that Krutrim has already announced "Stargate" infrastructure plans and is developing "India's first AI chip," scheduled to be taped out the following year.

Timestamp: [31:41-32:56]

Bhavish concludes his overview of Krutrim by addressing the geopolitical context, particularly the relationship between India and the United States. He emphasizes the importance of this partnership while also highlighting India's need for technological self-determination:

"In general, while India and the US are very, very deep partners and I think geopolitically India and the US are going to be very relevant for each other through this century, but India still needs to have its destiny in its own hands."

This statement reflects a nuanced position that values strong international partnerships while maintaining national technological sovereignty. Bhavish crystallizes this philosophy with an elegant metaphor about the nature of productive relationships:

"A great friendship is when you're not reliant on the other, but you're adding value to the other."

This perspective frames India's technological independence not as opposition to partnership with the US, but rather as the foundation for a more balanced and mutually beneficial relationship. The goal is not isolation but interdependence based on strength and capability rather than dependency.

At this point, Aditya acknowledges Bhavish's comprehensive vision and prepares to shift the conversation in a new direction.

Timestamp: [32:56-33:12]

• Krutrim's mission is to make India the most productive economy in the world through AI deployment across the country
• India currently consumes only $10 of compute per capita annually compared to $1,000 in the US, revealing a 100x gap in computing penetration
• AI can potentially accelerate India's economic growth from 7-8% to 12-15% annually, similar to how China leveraged manufacturing outsourcing
• Compounded over 25 years, this acceleration could mean the difference between a $20-25 trillion economy and a $50 trillion economy by 2047
• Western AI models and computing paradigms aren't adequately addressing Indian languages, contexts, and cost structures
• India produces the largest amount of digital data globally due to population scale, but 90% is stored outside the country
• India has the world's largest pool of developers and silicon designers, yet most work on products for Western markets
• Krutrim's strategy spans three layers: AI models tailored for Indian needs, domestic infrastructure (including Stargate), and India's first AI chip
• India-US partnership remains strategically important, but India needs technological self-determination
• True friendship between nations is built on mutual value addition rather than dependency

Timestamp: [25:42-33:12]

Companies/Organizations:

• Krutrim - Bhavish's AI company focused on building AI for Indian needs and contexts
• Microsoft - Mentioned as an iconic company bringing Western technology paradigms to India
• Google - Mentioned as an iconic company bringing Western technology paradigms to India
• OpenAI - Referenced when discussing how Krutrim is not trying to compete by building trillion-parameter models
• East India Company - Historical reference comparing data extraction from India to colonial practices

Technology Projects:

• Krutrim Model - First AI model launched by the company, described as the best performing Indian indic language model
• Krutrim Second Model - Mentioned as launching by the end of the month
• Stargate - Infrastructure initiative announced by Krutrim
• India's First AI Chip - Mentioned as being developed by Krutrim with a tape-out planned for next year

Economic Concepts:

• Per Capita GDP - Used to compare India ($2,500) with the US ($80,000)
• GDP Growth Rate - Discussion of how AI could accelerate India's growth from 7-8% to 12-15%
• Computing Penetration - Metric measuring software/computing market as percentage of GDP

Technology Concepts:

• AI Models - First layer of Krutrim's strategy focusing on Indian languages and contexts
• Infrastructure - Second layer including cloud, energy, and cooling systems
• Chip Design - Third layer focusing on developing India's first AI chip
• Data Sovereignty - Concept discussed regarding 90% of Indian data being stored outside the country
• Synthetic Data - Mentioned as being linked to compute scale rather than population

Historical References:

• India's 100 Years of Independence - Mentioned as occurring in 2047, about 23-24 years away
• India's Telecom Revolution - Referenced as enabling Indians to be very active online

Timestamp: [25:42-33:12]

Prateek acknowledges that founding is a lonely and difficult journey, often tougher than it appears from the outside. He asks Bhavish about how he has dealt with the struggles of being a founder and how he has built a support network to help him on his journey.

Bhavish immediately offers what he describes as a "contrarian view" on the topic of founder struggles:

"I've heard so many and I've looked up to so many people be it Steve Jobs or Elon Musk or Jensen or in the Indian context Ratan Tata or Dhirubhai Ambani etc."

He points out a stark difference between American and Indian narratives around entrepreneurship. The American narrative often emphasizes extreme hardship, with founders sometimes saying they wouldn't choose the same path if given another chance. In contrast, traditional Indian business builders rarely frame their journey this way.

"When I hear the American narrative around starting up, it's very different from the Indian narrative around traditional Indian narrative around business building. You won't hear an Indian traditional businessman say it's so hard and if I'm born again I will not choose this path."

Bhavish firmly positions himself in opposition to the "it's too hard" narrative:

"If I'm born again I will do this again because this is my purpose."

Timestamp: [33:20-34:59]

Bhavish frames entrepreneurial challenges as part of a broader pattern in life where anything valuable requires effort and perseverance.

"While it is hard, but anything of value in life is hard. Parenting is hard, doesn't mean you don't want to be a parent. Sports is hard, but doesn't mean Sachin Tendulkar says don't become a cricketer."

He emphasizes that when you're aligned with your purpose, the difficulties of entrepreneurship become worthwhile and even strengthening. This perspective shifts the focus from hardship to meaning and contribution.

"For an entrepreneur it becomes harder if you're not really aligned to your purpose and if you don't really feel it like we had the discussion on gut and instinct. If you don't feel that this is what you're meant to do."

Bhavish cautions against starting companies with the primary goal of achieving wealth or fame:

"If you're doing it for making money, if you're doing it for fame, this is the wrong way to get fame or money. Because almost always you will find enough reasons along the way which will knock you off."

In contrast, when entrepreneurship is viewed as a life mission or purpose, adversity transforms from an obstacle to a source of strength:

"If you're doing it because it's your life's purpose and if it's a life's mission, then no matter what kind of adversity you face, that adversity will only make you stronger because you're clear about why you're doing it."

This purpose-driven approach to entrepreneurship provides resilience through the inevitable challenges and setbacks that founders face.

Timestamp: [34:59-36:19]

Aditya asks about unique characteristics of great Indian entrepreneurs that might differ from their Western counterparts. Bhavish makes an interesting distinction, focusing on pre-tech Indian founders rather than contemporary tech entrepreneurs:

"When you say Indian founders, I'll actually refer to the pre-tech founders because I think Indian tech founders actually are more in the western mold than the Indian mold."

He suggests that the current generation of Indian entrepreneurs, including himself, needs to become more grounded in Indian ethos while maintaining the advantages of their Western influences.

Looking at iconic Indian business builders like Jamsetji Tata, Dhirubhai Ambani, and Mukesh Ambani, Bhavish identifies several distinctive characteristics:

"I think there's a lot more... the country's context is much deeper in their journey than Silicon Valley entrepreneurs."

He explains this difference through historical context. While the US is a high-income country (though he prefers not to call it "developed," agreeing with the perspective that all countries should pursue growth), India has emerged from a century of economic and cultural suppression. This historical backdrop infuses traditional Indian entrepreneurship with a different energy:

"The energy of an entrepreneur, let's say the Tatas of the world or Jamsetji Tata or even G.D. Birla who was the founder of Birla group, very much around nation building, much stronger around nation building."

He observes that his generation of Indian entrepreneurs hasn't fully embraced this nation-building ethos yet, as they're still finding their footing in technology. However, he emphasizes that India's nation-building project is only beginning, suggesting this dimension will become increasingly important.

Timestamp: [36:19-38:49]

Bhavish suggests that capitalism in India will develop distinctive features that reflect the country's unique context and values:

"The way capitalism will be interpreted in India will have these additional nuances of community, nation, society, more than what I would feel in the west."

He draws a parallel between India's current moment and America's developmental period in the 19th and early 20th centuries, when industrialists like the Rockefellers and JP Morgans were building the nation as it emerged from colonization. He sees his generation of entrepreneurs as part of that same continuum in the Indian context.

However, Bhavish also identifies an area where Indian entrepreneurs could learn from Silicon Valley:

"One thing we do need to learn from the Silicon Valley is actually appreciating technology. I think in India we don't appreciate as a country technology enough."

He points to the lack of robust public debate about emerging technologies like artificial intelligence:

"There needs to be much deeper debate about AI in India. There's hardly any debate about AI in India and we feel that, 'Oh okay, if ChatGPT is available then what's the deal, we'll use it.'"

This observation suggests that while Indian entrepreneurship may have strengths in its connection to national purpose, it has room to grow in its engagement with technological innovation and its implications.

Timestamp: [38:49-40:15]

Aditya responds to Bhavish's observations by reflecting on Silicon Valley's distinctive ethos and how it contrasts with India's entrepreneurial culture:

"One of the things that unfortunately Silicon Valley for the last 40-50 years since it got started has really thought of itself as the pirates. We're a bunch of pirates, we build things outside of the system, we are disruptors."

He describes how Silicon Valley has historically positioned itself in opposition to established institutions, particularly government:

"We're not there to try to make the establishment and the institution better. We're there to overthrow and overturn. We're much more interested in revolutions."

This anti-establishment stance, Aditya argues, has led to a certain disconnection from national purpose:

"In our ethos we don't feel that sense of like pride towards the country. There's no sense of nation building or doing the right thing for the country, for the populace."

However, he notes an emerging shift in this mindset, particularly with companies like Palantir and Anduril that are explicitly focused on American national interests:

"When you go and talk to people from there, they have this sense of 'Yes, we are building things for America to either protect America or to return America to growth.'"

This contrasts with the Indian entrepreneurial landscape:

"It's very different in India because you go talk to great entrepreneurs in India and they're often talking about building the nation, building the country, and that has a sense of very deep higher purpose and calling."

Aditya also mentions that through South Park Commons in India, he and Prateek are trying to encourage more technically ambitious projects - building electric vehicles, AI chips, drones, and rockets - recognizing that deep technical innovation is key to leapfrogging development.

Timestamp: [40:15-42:28]

Aditya reflects on his visit to Bhavish's electric vehicle factory, which prompted a profound realization about the relative complexity of hardware versus software ventures:

"After visiting your factory—so I'm a software guy, I've built a bunch of software companies—but dude, building software is so much easier than the set of things that you had to do to launch electric scooters."

He enumerates the multitude of challenges Bhavish had to tackle simultaneously:

"I was thinking about like, okay, he has to build a factory, he has to have drivetrain, he has to build the batteries himself, he has a software component, he has the hardware OS component, he's doing PCBs, he has to do supply chain, he has to do physical showrooms, he has to do maintenance."

This comprehensive list of interdependent systems and processes highlights the extraordinary complexity of Bhavish's hardware venture compared to pure software businesses:

"I'm just thinking, all I'm doing is building software, man. Software is like... Software is actually relatively quite easy relative to all of the moving parts."

This observation acknowledges the additional layers of complexity that hardware entrepreneurs must navigate, from physical manufacturing to supply chains to maintenance infrastructure. It suggests a certain humility from the software entrepreneur when confronted with the multidimensional challenges of building physical products at scale.

Timestamp: [42:28-43:12]

• Bhavish offers a "contrarian view" on founder struggles, rejecting the narrative that entrepreneurship is too difficult to choose again
• Purpose-driven entrepreneurship transforms challenges from obstacles into sources of strength and resilience
• Starting companies primarily for wealth or fame creates vulnerability to giving up when inevitable obstacles arise
• Modern Indian tech founders often follow Western entrepreneurial models, but could benefit from reconnecting with traditional Indian business ethos
• Traditional Indian business builders like the Tatas and Ambanis were deeply motivated by nation-building, a quality that younger tech entrepreneurs are still developing
• Capitalism in India is evolving with distinctive characteristics that emphasize community, nation, and society more than Western models
• India needs to develop a deeper appreciation for technology and engage more substantively in debates about emerging technologies like AI
• Silicon Valley's historical anti-establishment "pirate" mentality contrasts with Indian entrepreneurs' stronger connection to national purpose
• Some newer American companies like Palantir and Anduril are beginning to embrace a more nation-focused entrepreneurial model
• Building hardware businesses involves vastly more complexity than software ventures, requiring simultaneous mastery of manufacturing, supply chains, maintenance infrastructure, and more

Timestamp: [33:20-43:12]

People:

• Steve Jobs - Mentioned as someone Bhavish has looked up to
• Elon Musk - Referenced as an entrepreneurial figure Bhavish has studied
• Jensen - Likely referring to Jensen Huang of NVIDIA, mentioned as an inspiration
• Ratan Tata - Referenced as an iconic Indian business leader
• Dhirubhai Ambani - Mentioned as an important figure in Indian business
• Mukesh Ambani - Current chairman of Reliance Industries, referenced in discussion of Indian business leaders
• Sachin Tendulkar - Indian cricket legend, mentioned in analogy about pursuing difficult but worthwhile paths
• Jamsetji Tata - Founder of the Tata Group, referenced in discussion of nation-building entrepreneurs
• G.D. Birla - Founder of the Birla Group, mentioned in context of nation-building business leaders
• Rockefellers - American industrial dynasty, referenced in comparison to India's current developmental stage
• JP Morgan - American banking magnate, mentioned in historical comparison
• Donald Trump - Referenced briefly regarding economic growth philosophy

Companies/Organizations:

• South Park Commons (SPC) - Aditya and Prateek's organization working to foster technical innovation in India
• Tata Group - Major Indian conglomerate founded by Jamsetji Tata
• Birla Group - Major Indian conglomerate founded by G.D. Birla
• Reliance - Major Indian conglomerate founded by Dhirubhai Ambani
• Palantir - Referenced as an American company with a national purpose orientation
• Anduril - Mentioned as an American company with national security focus

Technologies/Products:

• Electric Vehicles/Scooters - Discussed regarding the complexity of Bhavish's manufacturing venture
• AI Chips - Mentioned as example of technically ambitious projects SPC aims to foster
• Drones - Referenced as example of technical innovation needed in India
• Rockets - Referenced as example of advanced technology that could help India leapfrog development
• ChatGPT - Mentioned regarding the lack of substantive AI debate in India
• PCBs (Printed Circuit Boards) - Referenced in discussion of hardware manufacturing complexity

Concepts:

• Nation Building - Central theme in comparing Indian and American entrepreneurial approaches
• Capitalism with Indian Characteristics - The idea that India will develop its own form of entrepreneurial capitalism
• Silicon Valley "Pirate" Mentality - The anti-establishment ethos of American tech entrepreneurship
• Purpose-Driven Entrepreneurship - Bhavish's approach to founding based on deeper mission rather than financial gain

Timestamp: [33:20-43:12]

Aditya asks Bhavish if he ever feels intimidated by the breadth and scope of the ambitious projects he undertakes, wondering if Bhavish's approach is to simply forge ahead without worrying about knowing all the details in advance.

Bhavish responds by reframing the question entirely, shifting the focus from difficulty to impact:

"More important than whether it's hard or easy, I think is whether it's useful and impactful at scale."

He suggests that what truly drives entrepreneurs is not the avoidance of difficulty but the pursuit of meaningful impact:

"What drives me as an entrepreneur, I think what drives any entrepreneur, is can I have impact at bigger scale."

Using electric vehicles as an example, he explains that they are crucial for a country's energy transition, productivity, and global competitiveness. While acknowledging that such ventures are undeniably challenging, he maintains that the potential for large-scale impact is the decisive factor.

Bhavish also pushes back gently on Aditya's self-deprecating comparison of software and hardware ventures, noting that software businesses have their own complexities:

"Software is also, while you think of as easy, I think you're being a little hard on yourself... Building a software business has its own challenges. It is a complex machine... if you want to compete and win, it is complex, it is challenging."

This reframing from difficulty to impact represents a fundamental shift in how to evaluate entrepreneurial opportunities - not by asking how hard they will be, but by considering their potential to create meaningful change at scale.

Timestamp: [43:17-44:30]

Bhavish highlights a significant advantage of entering a new domain: the freedom to approach problems with fresh eyes and ask fundamental questions:

"There's another advantage you have if you're new to a domain. You just approach with foolishness and ask the stupid questions. And actually, the stupid questions are the most important ones."

Aditya enthusiastically agrees, celebrating the concept of the beginner's mind:

"The beginner's mind is such a beautiful mind where you are able to come in and not be encumbered."

He shares his perspective on how dogma develops in organizations, warning that executives should consider moving on if they find themselves constantly rejecting new ideas by referencing past decisions. This attitude, he argues, fills one's mind with "useless dogma" that holds companies and executives back.

"As an executive, you should leave a company if you find yourself being the person who, when a new person comes, you're saying 'Oh, we thought about this 5 years ago, this is the reason we said no.'"

Aditya even tells his colleagues at South Park Commons to disregard his input if he ever falls into this pattern of dogmatic thinking, emphasizing that "you should never listen to dogmatic people."

Bhavish wholeheartedly agrees with this philosophy, drawing a beautiful parallel to childhood:

"There's a little bliss in being a beginner. All of us have memory of childhood, and as children we were beginners in the journey called life. Our memories of childhood are largely blissful... we were enjoying learning, there was a beauty about being curious about everything."

This nostalgic reflection highlights how maintaining a beginner's mindset is one of the "tricks of adulting" - preserving that childlike curiosity and openness that unfortunately often diminishes as we grow older.

Timestamp: [44:30-46:16]

Bhavish reflects on how the beginner's mindset applies to both business and personal life, acknowledging his own journey with dogmatic thinking:

"I have also gone through the journey where in business I have been dogmatic, and whenever I've looked back and looked at my dogmatic decisions, they've always been underwhelming."

In contrast, he's found that decisions based on first principles and curiosity consistently yield better results:

"When I've taken first principal decisions, decisions based on curiosity, I've always felt that they've turned out much better."

Aditya agrees, emphasizing the importance of being willing to update one's beliefs as new information becomes available:

"Without a fear of updating your priors as you get more information, you can change."

Bhavish eloquently frames this flexibility as "the beauty of life":

"Why do you want to carry the baggage of the past? The beauty of life is you're living now and the future."

This philosophy leads Aditya to express frustration with media that resurrects decade-old statements, noting that people evolve and gain new information over time. Bhavish illustrates this point with his persistence in the food delivery business:

"I've tried my hand at the food delivery business two-three times, and the first two-three times I failed. Just recently last year we began another effort at it, and everybody's like 'You failed three times, why are you trying it again?' But I'm like, 'I have a better idea this time. I think I can do it better.'"

This willingness to revisit previous failures with new approaches exemplifies the anti-dogmatic mindset both speakers advocate. Aditya relates this to experiences at South Park Commons, where they frequently return to previously considered ideas when timing or circumstances become more favorable.

Timestamp: [46:16-47:43]

• When evaluating entrepreneurial opportunities, impact potential is more important than difficulty level
• True entrepreneurs are driven by the desire to create meaningful change at scale rather than avoiding challenges
• Both hardware and software businesses have their own unique complexities and challenges
• Entering a new domain with a beginner's mindset allows entrepreneurs to ask fundamental questions that experts might overlook
• Maintaining childlike curiosity and openness to learning is one of the "tricks of adulting" in both business and personal life
• Dogmatic thinking often leads to underwhelming results compared to first-principles reasoning and curiosity
• The willingness to update beliefs with new information is essential for growth and innovation
• Revisiting previous failures with new approaches and insights can lead to eventual success
• Executives should be wary of becoming the person who habitually rejects new ideas by referencing past decisions
• Timing matters in entrepreneurship; ideas that failed in the past might succeed when attempted under more favorable conditions

Timestamp: [43:17-47:43]

Business Ventures:

• Electric Vehicles (EVs) - Referenced as important for a country's energy transition, productivity, and global competitiveness
• Food Delivery Business - Mentioned as a venture Bhavish has attempted multiple times, with previous failures and a recent new attempt

Organizations:

• South Park Commons (SPC) - Referenced by Aditya as a place where they revisit previously considered ideas when timing becomes favorable

Concepts:

• Beginner's Mind - Central concept discussed as a valuable approach to problem-solving and innovation
• First Principles Thinking - Contrasted with dogmatic thinking as a more effective approach to decision-making
• Impact at Scale - Described as the primary driver for entrepreneurs rather than difficulty avoidance
• Dogmatic Thinking - Identified as a limiting factor in business and personal growth
• Updating Priors - The concept of revising beliefs based on new information
• Energy Transition - Mentioned in context of EVs' importance for national development

Philosophical Ideas:

• Childhood Curiosity - Framed as a valuable mindset to maintain into adulthood
• Living in the Present - Referenced in Bhavish's comment about not carrying "the baggage of the past"
• Entrepreneurial Persistence - Exemplified by Bhavish's willingness to retry the food delivery business despite previous failures

Timestamp: [43:17-47:43]

Prateek asks Bhavish how he maintains purpose and focus at scale within his organizations, noting that Bhavish is often referred to as always being in "founder mode."

Bhavish approaches this question by first addressing how to build organizational belief in mission and purpose:

"I think it starts by hiring and self-selecting those who want to join. That's actually something, some of those tactics have learned from Silicon Valley by making sure you communicate your culture clearly."

He emphasizes that culture isn't about right or wrong approaches, but about authenticity and finding people who resonate with the organization's purpose:

"Culture does not mean there is a right way or there is a wrong way. There is your way and there is another person's way. It's just who you are, you just be yourself, be authentic."

This doesn't mean hiring identical people - diverse perspectives are valuable, but the alignment with purpose must be genuine. Bhavish describes a company at its most fundamental level as "a set of people achieving the same goal," making clear communication of that goal essential.

"The same goal needs to be very clear and clearly communicated in its authentic rawness."

He practices this by communicating repeatedly in public forums and internal meetings, sometimes erring on the side of being too direct:

"Sometimes it gets too raw and then I learn from it, but too raw is better than too polished in my view any day. I will take too raw."

Timestamp: [47:49-49:47]

Bhavish emphasizes the critical importance of building a talent flywheel in organizations - a concept he credits to Silicon Valley:

"Once you have a talent flywheel... get the good people get good people and the bad people get bad worse people."

He candidly acknowledges making hiring mistakes early in his journey, particularly what he calls "trophy hires" – impressive-looking candidates who weren't necessarily the best fit for the organization's needs:

"Initially in my journey I didn't necessarily hire the best. I would have hired the more trophy hires if I can call them so, and we've all made those mistakes."

This experience led him to develop a more nuanced understanding of what makes a great hire beyond superficial credentials:

"The best need not be the fanciest looking."

Over time, Bhavish's organizations have built their own criteria for identifying talent that works well within their specific context:

"We've also built our own ability to identify what works in terms of authenticity, relevance, as well as capability for us."

With the right talent in place, Bhavish emphasizes creating a work environment characterized by:

"Zero bureaucracy."

This cultural emphasis relates to the "founder mode" Prateek referenced – staying deeply engaged with the work rather than becoming overly abstracted from operations.

Timestamp: [49:47-51:07]

Aditya responds to Bhavish's mention of "founder mode" by sharing his own perspective on micromanagement, challenging conventional wisdom about leadership:

"One of the big things at least about founder mode that I've seen a lot in... Bhavish, I actually think that the world is appreciating now that it's okay to micromanage."

He expresses regret about advice he received early in his career that emphasized "scaling yourself" and "getting out of the details," suggesting that this approach misses something crucial about effective leadership:

"I actually think a lot of founder mode is like, no, get into the details where you can make a difference. That's actually being a founder."

Bhavish wholeheartedly agrees with this perspective:

"You have to care about it. You cannot just abstract away the caring about the details. It's actually not a very natural feeling to abstract yourself away from it."

However, he acknowledges the tension between hands-on leadership and organizational growth:

"You have to scale while being in the details. You do have to scale to do bigger, bigger, bigger things."

Bhavish suggests reframing the conversation away from the binary of "low micromanagement or high micromanagement," which he considers "the wrong dimension." Instead, he focuses on organizational productivity and effectiveness:

"The right dimension is how do we make a team more productive, how do we make a team more effective. And the ways to do that is to remove internal bureaucracy, remove the layers of decision-making. Decisions need to be taken fast instead of the perfect decision."

This philosophy can't be fully codified in formal values statements or principles, as Bhavish observes that some companies do:

"One thing which I see some companies do, and I don't agree with this, is the list of 10 things, list of 20 things cultural values, and the new CEO comes, he adds two to it, removes one from it."

Instead, Bhavish prefers an approach where culture is embodied rather than documented:

"The way I like to do it, and it works for me, is just the vibe has to be that... 'We do it like this here.' Is it written? No, it's not written. But many countries' constitutions are also not written."

Timestamp: [51:07-52:58]

Aditya shares a key principle from his time at Facebook that has stayed with him:

"Perfect is the enemy of good. Organizations - it's much better to make a decision quickly because most doors are not like one-way doors. If you make a mistake, you can backtrack, you can come back."

He explains that while some decisions truly are irreversible ("one-way doors") and warrant more deliberation, the vast majority aren't. For these, speed should be prioritized over perfection:

"If it really is a one-way door, then okay, take a little bit more time. But most of the times, it's actually speed that you want to optimize for - speed and low bureaucracy."

Bhavish builds on this concept, observing that people and organizations have different tolerances for mistakes versus delays:

"People and organizations are tolerant of mistakes, but they're not actually tolerant of taking a long time. That's what drives the best people away."

He shares that his own goal is to foster this emphasis on speed within his companies:

"That's my endeavor also, is to build that kind of a vibe in the company that, 'Let's move fast guys, let's be nimble at scale.'"

Prateek agrees with this approach, adding an important insight about leadership communication:

"This is one mantra that I have felt works really well, which is only when you're getting tired of saying it is when people have started hearing it and internalizing it."

This observation highlights the need for persistent, consistent messaging about organizational values like speed and nimbleness - repeating these principles until they become ingrained in the culture.

Timestamp: [52:58-54:05]

Prateek raises the topic of Bhavish's active public presence, particularly online, where he has been known to engage in public disputes:

"You've been publicly very active, especially online, and taking no from a lot of people out there. And you've picked up battles at times."

He asks how Bhavish decides which battles to engage in and which to avoid. Bhavish responds by describing his natural inclination toward authentic expression:

"I like to just say what I feel. That's my natural way of engaging."

However, he acknowledges that his position as the leader of a public company now requires more balance than when he was younger:

"I also feel now that I have a public company and all, I need to balance that a bit. As a young person, I always used to feel authenticity means saying what you feel."

Bhavish then offers a more nuanced definition of authenticity, drawing from the teachings in the Mahabharata:

"Authenticity means really doing what it takes to be true to your purpose, even if it's sometimes doing what it takes. This is Shri Krishna's teaching in the Mahabharata. Authenticity doesn't mean transparency. Authenticity means really caring deeply about your purpose."

This realization has led him to be more selective about public statements and conflicts:

"I've actually realized I sometimes should not say things I said in the past, or say them differently, or maybe it's not even required. Why pick a fight with every Tom, Dick and Harry?"

Yet he also recognizes that sometimes confrontation is necessary:

"But sometimes picking a fight is also very important. If it's the shortest path... the purpose has to be fulfilled by that."

This balanced perspective suggests that true authenticity is not about unfiltered expression but about strategically choosing when and how to engage based on what best serves one's deeper purpose.

Timestamp: [54:05-55:35]

Aditya concludes the conversation with warm words of admiration for Bhavish:

"Bhavish, you are an inspiration to all of us. I mean that sincerely. As I've gotten to know you better, I have more and more respect both for what you've achieved but also a deep excitement for what will be built in India in the future."

He expresses optimism about India's future, referring to it as "young and bright," and positions Bhavish as a "main character on the stage" in this unfolding story. Aditya shares his hope that South Park Commons will continue to collaborate with Bhavish in the coming years.

Bhavish responds with equally appreciative words for Aditya:

"You are somebody I have also gotten to know recently, and your journey and what you're doing... building your purpose very honestly."

He emphasizes the importance of South Park Commons' work in the Indian context:

"I think you will be one of the key platforms which will catalyze this kind of technology thinking in India, and I really look forward to collaborating."

This exchange of mutual respect and shared vision for India's technological future beautifully concludes their conversation, highlighting the collaborative spirit that both leaders bring to their work.

The episode ends with Aditya's sign-off for the "Minus One" podcast from South Park Commons, encouraging listeners to subscribe and acknowledging the team at Atomic Growth for their support with the episode's production and distribution.

Timestamp: [55:35-57:06]

• Building organizational belief in mission and purpose begins with hiring people who authentically resonate with the company's goals
• Clear, repeated communication of goals "in their authentic rawness" is essential, with a preference for being too direct rather than too polished
• Creating a talent flywheel is critical - good people attract more good people, while poor hires lead to further deterioration
• Early-career founders often make "trophy hires" based on impressive credentials rather than genuine fit with the organization
• "Founder mode" includes staying deeply engaged in details rather than abstracting oneself from operations
• The conventional wisdom that leaders should "scale themselves" and "get out of the details" misses the importance of caring about specifics
• Instead of focusing on micromanagement levels, leaders should concentrate on making teams more productive and effective
• Organizational culture works better as an embodied "vibe" than as written value statements that change with each new leadership team
• Decision speed typically matters more than decision perfection, as most mistakes can be corrected
• Organizations are generally more tolerant of mistakes than of slow decision-making, which drives away top talent
• Leaders should repeat key messages until they're tired of saying them - that's when others have just begun to internalize them
• True authenticity isn't about saying whatever you feel, but about doing what best serves your deeper purpose
• Knowing when to engage in public disputes and when to step back requires strategic judgment aligned with purpose

Timestamp: [47:49-55:35]

Organizations:

• Silicon Valley - Referenced as source of effective hiring tactics and the talent flywheel concept
• Facebook - Mentioned by Aditya as where he learned the "perfect is the enemy of good" principle
• South Park Commons - Organization that Aditya and Prateek are building to catalyze technology thinking in India
• Atomic Growth - Acknowledged in the outro for helping with the podcast's production and distribution

Concepts:

• Founder Mode - Key topic of discussion regarding hands-on leadership style and engagement with details
• Talent Flywheel - Concept that good hires attract more good talent, while poor hires lead to further deterioration
• Trophy Hires - Term Bhavish uses for impressive-looking candidates who aren't necessarily the best organizational fit
• Zero Bureaucracy - Organizational principle emphasized by Bhavish
• One-way vs. Two-way Doors - Framework for decision-making where irreversible decisions warrant more deliberation
• Authentic Rawness - Bhavish's communication approach emphasizing directness over polish

Cultural References:

• Mahabharata - Indian epic referenced when discussing authenticity
• Shri Krishna - Divine figure from Hindu tradition whose teachings about authenticity Bhavish references
• Danda - Indian term briefly mentioned by Bhavish in contrast to startups

Programs:

• Minus One - The name of the podcast by South Park Commons focusing on the pre-launch phase of entrepreneurship

Timestamp: [47:49-57:06]

Podcast Information:

• Name: Minus One
• Host: Aditya Agarwal, Partner at South Park Commons
• Co-Host: Prateek Mehta, Founding Partner for South Park Commons India
• Focus: The pre-launch phase of entrepreneurship (the "minus one to zero" stage)

How to Follow:

• Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen to podcasts
• Find the podcast team on social media at South Park Commons

Production Credits:

• The episode was produced with support from Atomic Growth, who helped with content research, production, and distribution

Timestamp: [56:43-57:06]