Joe Hudson - The Leadership Coach Sam Altman and Top AI Teams Trust

Joe Hudson opens with a profound assertion that cuts to the heart of organizational dynamics. He explains that every single business problem organizations face fundamentally stems from a lack of self-awareness, particularly at the leadership level. The entire organization becomes a mirror reflecting the CEO's internal state and behavioral patterns.

"Every single business problem you have is a self-awareness problem. The whole organization is a mirror. If the CEO is conflict avoidant, conflict avoidance is going to be in that organization." - Joe Hudson

This perspective reframes common business challenges from operational or strategic issues to psychological and emotional ones. Rather than looking outward for solutions, Hudson advocates for leaders to look inward first. The ripple effect of a leader's unconscious patterns, fears, and avoidance behaviors cascades throughout the entire organization, creating systemic issues that can't be solved through traditional business strategies alone.

Timestamp: [0:00-0:31]

Hudson tackles the universal experience of impostor syndrome with refreshing honesty and practical wisdom. Rather than trying to convince people they're not impostors, he acknowledges the reality that everyone, including highly successful individuals, experiences these feelings.

"You can't logic yourself out of it because it's real. Jeff Bezos is an impostor, you're an impostor, I'm an impostor, and we're all wrong on some level. Working with the reality on the ground is a far more effective way than trying to convince yourself that you're not an imposter, which is what most people try to do." - Joe Hudson

His approach is revolutionary in its acceptance rather than resistance. Instead of fighting against impostor feelings, he suggests working with them as a natural part of the human experience. This perspective removes the shame and self-judgment that typically accompanies impostor syndrome, replacing it with a more compassionate and practical approach to personal and professional growth.

Timestamp: [0:12-0:31]

Joe Hudson shares his transformative seven-year journey of intensive self-reflection, spending countless hours in meditation and self-inquiry. This wasn't casual introspection but a dedicated practice of asking fundamental questions about the nature of identity and consciousness.

The journey began with a 10-day silent meditation retreat that his fiancée insisted he complete before their marriage. What he expected to be a challenge of silence became something much deeper - a confrontation with himself that would change his life's direction.

"During that experience I had this 8 seconds of bliss and I dedicated my life to finding out what the hell that was and how to live in that." - Joe Hudson

The central question that drove his practice was "What am I?" - not in terms of roles or achievements, but in terms of essential identity. He explains that while our bodies, thoughts, emotions, and even our professional identities change constantly, there's something fundamental that remains constant throughout our lives.

"What is the essence of what you are that doesn't come and go? Your body changes and your thoughts change, they come and go, emotions come and go, your definition of yourself - dad, venture capitalist - come and go, but the question really is like what is the essence of what you are that doesn't come and go." - Joe Hudson

This question consumed him, arising naturally throughout each day as he pursued this deep inquiry into the nature of consciousness and identity.

Timestamp: [0:38-2:32]

Hudson's intensive period of self-reflection fundamentally transformed his approach to coaching executives. Rather than getting caught up in clients' stories, strategies, or surface-level concerns, he focuses on connecting with something deeper - what he calls "the thing that's beyond the stories."

His background in international stock lending and venture capital, combined with his spiritual inquiry, creates a unique coaching perspective. He doesn't teach awakening or spirituality directly, but his approach is informed by that deeper understanding of human nature.

"I don't believe any of their stories. When I'm coaching somebody, I'm not talking to their stories, I'm talking to the thing that's beyond the stories - the thing that's not strategizing to get somewhere. I'm talking to the thing that knows already, not the part of them that is in a story or in a question." - Joe Hudson

This approach recognizes that beneath all the planning, worrying, and strategic thinking lies an innate wisdom that already knows the next right step. His job isn't to provide answers but to help clients access their own deeper knowing.

Timestamp: [2:32-3:54]

Hudson defines great coaching as meeting people exactly where they are and helping them with whatever they're working on in that specific moment. His approach is highly adaptive, recognizing that each client's needs and readiness levels are different.

"A great coach meets the person where they're at and helps them with the thing that they're working on in that moment. I'll have some executives I work with and we'll talk nothing but strategy for the first 3 to 4 months, and then we'll start talking about their parents or their upbringing or the emotions they're avoiding. I have others that I immediately - we just go right into the core issues that are running their life." - Joe Hudson

His process begins with a comprehensive assessment across all life areas - personal, business, children, and internal relationships. The key insight is that typically, the same core issue manifests across all these different domains.

Hudson distinguishes between two types of coaching approaches: the teacher model where information is transferred from coach to client, and the supportive model where the coach helps the client access their own inner wisdom and evolutionary path.

"There's a difference between 'I'm a teacher for you and I know this thing and I'm going to transfer that information to you' and 'you are on your path and there's a wisdom in you that knows your next step, your evolutionary path, and my job is to support you in that.' For me, coaching is very much the second, it's not the first." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [3:54-5:29]

Hudson addresses the artificial boundary many people create between personal and professional development. He views success holistically, recognizing that true effectiveness requires integration across all life areas.

When working with clients who prioritize material or business success, he commits to helping them achieve those goals while also ensuring they find fulfillment. His experience has shown him the emptiness that can come with achieving external success without internal satisfaction.

"I've been around this block enough to see a whole bunch of people who got everything they wanted only to find out that it's not what they needed. Plenty of billionaires are very unhappy." - Joe Hudson

He highlights a fascinating contradiction in human psychology - the same person who believes they can build a billion-dollar company in seven years will simultaneously believe they can't maintain a happy marriage or raise healthy children.

"It's amazing how somebody can literally think 'I can build a billion dollar company in seven years' but 'I can't do that and have a happy marriage' or 'I can't do that and raise healthy kids.' The amazingness of the human brain to say 'I can do this unachievable thing but I can't do this thing that people have been doing for eons.'" - Joe Hudson

This observation reveals how limiting beliefs operate selectively, allowing for extraordinary confidence in some areas while creating artificial limitations in others.

Timestamp: [5:29-7:21]

• Every business problem is fundamentally a self-awareness problem that reflects leadership's internal state
• Impostor syndrome is universal and real - the solution is working with it rather than trying to eliminate it
• Essential identity exists beyond changing roles, thoughts, and circumstances
• Effective coaching connects with clients' deeper wisdom rather than just their surface stories
• The same core issues typically manifest across all life areas - personal, professional, and relational
• People often believe they can achieve extraordinary business success while simultaneously believing they can't succeed in basic human relationships
• True coaching supports clients in accessing their own evolutionary path rather than transferring information

Timestamp: [0:00-7:21]

People:

• Jeff Bezos - Referenced as an example of someone who experiences impostor syndrome despite extraordinary success

Practices:

• 10-day silent meditation retreat - The transformative experience that initiated Joe's seven-year journey of self-inquiry
• Self-inquiry meditation - The practice of asking "What am I?" as a method for exploring essential identity

Industries/Backgrounds:

• International stock lending - Joe's professional background before his spiritual journey
• Venture capital - Joe's professional background after his period of intensive self-reflection

Timestamp: [0:00-7:21]

Hudson distinguishes between emotional intelligence and emotional clarity in a way that challenges conventional wisdom about emotional management. Most people, he observes, are trapped in emotional management - constantly trying to control their emotional states, wanting to feel more of some emotions and less of others.

"Most people are in emotional management right - where they're trying to manage their emotional states and what like 'I don't want to feel this, I do want to feel this, I want to feel more of this and less of that.' If you right now in your body - if I say 'Hey stop feeling all your emotions' - you have to start constricting muscles, you have to start like locking down. And that lockdown is stress, it's just another word for stress." - Joe Hudson

Emotional intelligence, in Hudson's view, focuses on working with and managing emotions. Emotional clarity takes a radically different approach - learning to love and appreciate every emotional state without trying to manage it, but rather developing a great relationship with all emotions.

"Emotional clarity for me is far more of how do I love and appreciate every emotional state that I'm in and not try to manage it but see how to have a great relationship with it." - Joe Hudson

The practical benefits of this approach include making better decisions, eliminating passive-aggressive behavior, and stopping procrastination.

Timestamp: [7:27-8:43]

Hudson reveals a crucial insight from neuroscience that fundamentally challenges the myth of purely rational decision-making. He explains that without the emotional center of the brain, humans literally cannot make decisions, despite maintaining the same IQ level.

"Neurologically speaking, if I took the emotional center of your brain away, you would cease to make decisions. Your IQ would stay the same but it would take you a half an hour to decide what color pen to use, maybe couple hours to decide where to have lunch." - Joe Hudson

This neurological reality means that all decisions are fundamentally emotional, even when we believe we're being logical. What we think of as logical decision-making is actually using logic to figure out how to feel the way we want to feel.

"We make emotional decisions and we think we can make logical ones, but we actually can't - it's not neurologically possible. What we're doing is using logic to figure out how to feel the way we want to feel." - Joe Hudson

When examining our life decisions, most can be traced back to emotional motivations - decisions made to feel like a winner, to feel secure, to feel free, or to avoid feeling unloved or abandoned.

"If you think about how many decisions did I make to feel like a winner or to feel secure or to feel free or to not feel unloved or to not feel abandoned, you can pretty much look at your life and say 'Wow that's most of the decisions I've made.'" - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [8:43-9:47]

Hudson explains that better decision-making comes through emotional clarity because when you've welcomed all emotional experiences, you're no longer making decisions based on avoidance or pursuit of specific emotions. Instead, decisions arise from something deeper and more authentic.

"Good decision-making comes through emotional clarity because you've fallen in love with or you have invited or welcomed all the emotional experiences, and so you're not making a decision based on avoidance of an emotion or to get to an emotion - you're making a decision based on something deeper." - Joe Hudson

This approach transcends the binary thinking that often traps people in cycles of emotional avoidance and seeking.

Timestamp: [9:47-10:08]

When asked about stoicism and emotional dissociation, Hudson makes a distinction between authentic ancient stoic philosophy and modern interpretations that often become emotional repression. He points out that humans are always having emotional experiences - there's never been a moment alive without emotions.

"There's never been a moment alive where you haven't had an emotional moment - so we always have emotions." - Joe Hudson

He draws a contrast between the original stoic philosophers like Marcus Aurelius and modern practitioners who often use stoicism as a justification for emotional repression.

"Most modern stoics - people who are repressing their emotions - they're not joyful. There's no joy, there's no like exuberance and happiness there. And if they do it in a particular way then they're depressed." - Joe Hudson

He connects depression directly to emotional avoidance, describing it as being scared to feel certain emotions and consequently shutting down the entire emotional system.

"Depression - it's literally 'I don't want, I'm scared to feel this thing because I felt it once and I'm going to stop feeling it' and that just tightens down the system." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [10:08-11:23]

Hudson outlines his comprehensive approach to helping executives achieve emotional clarity by working with three distinct parts of the brain system. He emphasizes that real transformation requires addressing all three components, not just one.

"I think of them as three different parts of the brain - there's the what I would call the head which is the prefrontal cortex which is human and that's the rational thought, problem solving, executive skills. And you've got the heart, what I call the heart, which is the mammalian which is the emotional part of the brain. And then there's the nervous system reptilian part of the brain. If you don't work on all three of those, you don't get real transformation." - Joe Hudson

He uses the common example of someone who knows they should work out but doesn't, illustrating how the prefrontal cortex (rational knowledge) alone is insufficient without emotional and nervous system alignment.

"We've all known the person who knows they should work out but they don't work out. So prefrontal cortex they've got it, but emotionally and nervous system wise they don't have it. Real transformation happens when all three of those things..." - Joe Hudson

Hudson notes that while all three components are equally important, emotions tend to be the most ignored in our society, making it often the area with the highest return on investment for development work.

Timestamp: [11:38-13:04]

Hudson introduces one of his primary tools called "emotional inquiry," which involves bringing childlike curiosity and wonder to emotional experiences rather than immediately pushing them away or managing them.

"One of the things that we have is called emotional inquiry, which is basically taking childlike wonder and bringing it to the emotional experience you have." - Joe Hudson

He describes the typical pattern: when triggered by shame, anger, or other difficult emotions, people feel the emotion for a split second before immediately pushing it away through defensiveness, shutdown, armor, or other protective mechanisms.

"Typically if I said something that triggered you or pissed you off or put you into shame - you're going to feel that emotion for a split second and then you're going to push it away either defensiveness or shut down, armor up, get angry, get scared, go into shame, beat yourself up - you're going to do something to stop feeling that emotional state." - Joe Hudson

The emotional inquiry process slows this down and gets curious about the physical experience of the emotion.

"What we do is we'll slow that down and get really curious - where is that in your body? How do you hold that? How does it move? How does it move over time? What color is it? Where exactly is it in your body? How thick is it? What's the density?" - Joe Hudson

This tool is freely available on their website and allows people to investigate emotions they've been avoiding.

Timestamp: [13:10-14:13]

Through emotional inquiry, Hudson explains that people discover emotions are actually sophisticated intelligence systems rather than problems to be solved. Each emotion carries specific, reliable information that can guide decision-making more consistently than thoughts.

"What they find out is - what made me scared of that? What makes us not want to feel shame? It's actually just another set of sensations and it turns out that it's an amazing signal. If I feel shame it means something very specific, it's like an incredible piece of intelligence." - Joe Hudson

He provides specific examples of emotional intelligence:

"If I'm angry, if I'm anxious, if I'm sad - all of them are very particular pieces of intelligence that we can rely on more consistently sometimes than a thought. Oh I'm angry - that means I probably have a boundary that's been crossed about something I care about, 'cause I don't get angry about things I don't care about. So what's the boundary that I need to draw here? Like that's an immediate signal." - Joe Hudson

However, when people judge their emotions as wrong or inappropriate, they lose access to this intelligence, converting useful emotional signals into shame and self-judgment.

"But not if you're like 'I shouldn't be angry' - then it's just shame, then it's just you've done something wrong." - Joe Hudson

Hudson emphasizes how this dynamic plays out in professional settings, noting that emotional avoidance and judgment comprise about half of what's actually happening in business meetings.

Timestamp: [14:13-15:19]

• Emotional management through control and avoidance creates physical stress and tension in the body
• All human decisions are fundamentally emotional - purely logical decision-making is neurologically impossible
• Better decisions come from welcoming all emotional experiences rather than avoiding or pursuing specific emotions
• Modern stoicism often becomes emotional repression, which leads to depression and lack of joy
• Real transformation requires working with three brain systems: rational (prefrontal cortex), emotional (mammalian), and nervous system (reptilian)
• Emotional inquiry involves bringing childlike curiosity to emotional experiences rather than immediately pushing them away
• Emotions are sophisticated intelligence systems that provide reliable information for decision-making
• Anger signals boundary violations, shame indicates misalignment with values, and other emotions carry specific intelligence
• Professional environments are significantly impacted by emotional avoidance and judgment

Timestamp: [7:27-15:19]

Books:

• Descartes' Error - Neuroscience book (last published in 2012) about people whose emotional brain centers are damaged, maintaining IQ but losing decision-making ability

Philosophers:

• Marcus Aurelius - Ancient Roman emperor and stoic philosopher, referenced as an example of authentic stoicism versus modern interpretations

Concepts:

• Emotional inquiry - Hudson's tool for bringing childlike wonder and curiosity to emotional experiences
• Three-brain model - Prefrontal cortex (rational), mammalian brain (emotional), and reptilian brain (nervous system)

Platforms:

• Art of Accomplishment website - Where the emotional inquiry tool is available for free download

Timestamp: [7:27-15:19]

Hudson challenges the artificial dichotomies that humans create, particularly the false choice between business success and other values. He uses the example of how in the 1980s, people believed you could either be a businessman or an environmentalist, but not both, until the 1990s proved this thinking wrong.

"I find that the mind likes to create false paradoxes. Remember in the 1980s it was you could either be a businessman or you could be an environmentalist but you couldn't be both, and then somewhere in the 90s you could be both." - Joe Hudson

He rejects the compartmentalization approach where people push aside parts of their lives to accomplish business goals, arguing instead that business can be approached as an art form with infinite creative possibilities.

"We can make a billion dollars by cutting down trees and we can make a billion dollars by planting them. I would say one of the ultimate art forms is business." - Joe Hudson

Hudson draws parallels between business and traditional art forms, noting that like painting requires pigment and music requires sound, business requires revenue as its basic medium. What makes business unique as an art form is its ability to exist independently of its creator.

"If I'm going to paint I need to use pigment, if I'm going to play music I need to use sound, if I'm going to make a business I need to have revenue - but that's the only real requirement. It's this crazy piece of art because it exists without you. You're giving life to something that exists without you. Edison's gone, GE still stands and it's constantly moving and evolving, and you get to do whatever you want with it." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [15:26-17:08]

Hudson illustrates a counterintuitive principle about accomplishment through a tennis coaching story. When his college girlfriend was told to hit a basket while serving, she succeeded two out of five times. But when a quarter was placed in the center of the basket and she was told to hit the quarter, she never hit the quarter but would have hit the basket five out of five times.

"My girlfriend in college used to play tennis and she had a tennis coach and he put out a basket and said 'Serve and hit it.' And she hit it like two out of five times. Then he put a quarter in the middle of where that basket was and said 'Serve and hit the quarter.' And she didn't hit the quarter once but she would have hit the basket five out of five times because she was focused on the thing beyond it." - Joe Hudson

This principle applies directly to entrepreneurship and business success. Hudson observes that every successful entrepreneur he's met had a primary objective beyond making money.

"Every successful entrepreneur that I ever have met - making money, building the business wasn't their primary objective. It was to win or it was to change the world or it was to put a dent into society or whatever universe - they all had their own ways for it but they always had a mission beyond making money." - Joe Hudson

The mission might be proving themselves to their father or any number of personal drivers, but the key is having something beyond the immediate business objective. This broader purpose creates a different relationship with employees and stakeholders.

"If you're thinking about your business only as being successful in your business, you don't do as well than if you actually say 'what is this thing that I want to create in the world?' And people respond to that. Employees - they'll come for a paycheck but they work differently when they feel a sense of purpose." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [17:14-18:34]

Hudson provides nuanced guidance on time horizons, emphasizing that different types of work require different temporal perspectives. For personal transformation, the most useful time horizon is the present moment, where patterns can be identified and addressed as they occur.

"Transformation - the time horizon that's most useful is usually right now. You can find the pattern that's occurring in your business, you can find it happening in the moment, and to address it in the moment is usually the most useful place to address it." - Joe Hudson

For team alignment and business goals, Hudson advocates for much shorter cycles than traditionally used, suggesting that quarterly planning is often too long for most businesses unless they're very established or in decline.

"As far as working with teams and building goals, different businesses are slightly different because some are more predictable and some are less predictable, but usually you want pretty short. I like quarterly - that's probably too long for most businesses unless they're really established and or dying. Team alignment needs very short - maybe like monthly or something depending on the business." - Joe Hudson

For life planning and broader perspective, Hudson recommends a unique allocation: spending 20-30% of mental time thinking about your deathbed or just short of it, with the rest focused on tactical present moments.

"If you're thinking about how you want your life to be, there needs to be probably 20 or 30% of your time thinking about your deathbed or just short of it, and then the rest of your time thinking about the tactical right now moments or this month moments." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [18:34-21:12]

• False paradoxes limit thinking - you can be both business-focused and value-driven simultaneously
• Business is an ultimate art form because it creates something that exists independently of its creator
• Focusing on goals beyond immediate objectives (like the quarter beyond the basket) often leads to better results
• Successful entrepreneurs are driven by missions beyond making money - winning, changing the world, or personal proving
• Different activities require different time horizons: transformation happens in the present moment, team alignment needs short cycles (monthly), and life planning requires both deathbed perspective (20-30% of time) and tactical present focus
• Quarterly planning is often too long for most businesses unless they're established or declining
• Employees work differently when they feel purpose beyond just receiving a paycheck

Timestamp: [15:26-21:12]

Historical Examples:

• 1980s business vs. environmentalism - False paradox where people believed you couldn't be both a businessman and environmentalist
• 1990s integration - Period when the false business/environmental paradox was resolved

Companies:

• General Electric (GE) - Example of a business that outlasts its founder (Edison) and continues evolving independently

People:

• Thomas Edison - Referenced as founder of GE, example of creator whose business art form outlives them

Sports/Training Concepts:

• Tennis basket drill - Training exercise where focusing on a quarter placed in a basket improves overall accuracy
• Hockey analogy - "Skate to where the puck is going" - referenced in context of thinking ahead

Timestamp: [15:26-21:12]

Hudson identifies self-reliance as one of the most common limiting beliefs among high achievers. These individuals typically learned early in life that they had to do everything themselves to be successful, creating a pattern of isolation even when surrounded by supportive teams.

"Most people who are super high achievers somewhere learned that they had to do it themselves if they were going to be successful. The lucky ones got mentorship and learned that they had some authority figure in their life that was kind, and therefore they look for mentor relationships. But they'll still in most of their world feel like they have to get it done and they feel alone in solving the problem." - Joe Hudson

The irony of this pattern becomes apparent when examining successful leaders who have entire organizations supporting them, yet still feel isolated in their decision-making.

"You can look at a person who's running let's just say like a 30,000 person company, and everybody in that company shows up and nobody says 'You know what, I want the CEO to be really unhappy with me today.' Nobody does that, and yet they feel alone in problem solving. How the hell is that possible? But yet that is a really common world belief." - Joe Hudson

Breaking through this self-reliance pattern can unlock tremendous team potential and collaborative effectiveness.

Timestamp: [21:52-23:03]

Hudson identifies shame as another universal challenge among high achievers, particularly the "I have to prove myself" variety. Many successful people operate under the false belief that their critical inner voice is necessary for motivation and achievement.

"There is some sort of 'I have to prove myself' shame, and the feeling that they have is 'if I stop riding myself, beating myself up, pushing myself, then I'm just going to sit on a couch and drink beer and not do anything.'" - Joe Hudson

To help clients recognize the inefficiency of this approach, Hudson conducts a simple but powerful experiment where he asks them to notice and report every critical thought as it occurs.

"I'll be like 'Okay well then let's just be quiet and you just tell me what that critical voice in your head is saying every time it says something.' And the critical voice in the head talks really often as it turns out, and it's like a repeating voice. It's like 'You're not doing this well enough, you're not doing this, why aren't you doing this, you got to get this done.' And 'Oh you screwed up there.' You know, it just kind of repeats." - Joe Hudson

Hudson references research suggesting people have approximately 60,000 thoughts per day, with most being repetitive and negative. He then helps clients understand the impact through a powerful reframe.

"According to the Mayo Clinic, it's like 60,000 thoughts a day and most of them are these repeating negative thoughts. Now imagine you're doing your work and your boss is sitting next to you and they're talking to you like that - how productive are you going to be?" - Joe Hudson

This realization helps clients understand that 30-50% of their energy is being drained by negative self-talk and self-management, energy that could be redirected toward productive work.

Timestamp: [23:03-25:03]

The third common pattern Hudson identifies is emotional avoidance and how it directly limits business capacity and problem-solving ability. He shares a case study of working with an executive at a major AI company who was excellent at problem-solving in most areas but completely stuck in one specific domain.

"I was just working with somebody running one of the big parts of an AI company, and we were noticing - here is everything you're good at, and yet somehow you can't problem solve this one area. You can problem solve better than all these other people in these 25 areas that we just saw, but you can't do this one area. What's the emotion you're avoiding?" - Joe Hudson

The breakthrough came when the executive identified and felt the avoided emotion, immediately revealing the solution.

"As soon as they saw it, as soon as they felt that emotion, boom - the problem just appeared. That's the thing that I think people don't get: when we can't solve a problem, typically it's just an avoided emotion." - Joe Hudson

This insight suggests that many business challenges aren't actually intellectual or strategic problems but emotional avoidance patterns masquerading as complex issues.

Timestamp: [25:03-25:54]

Logan introduces a framework from Keith Rabois about "barrels and ammunition," which he adapts into a "football players vs basketball players" metaphor for understanding different organizational operating styles.

Football players represent people who prefer clear, specific job definitions and execute their discrete functions well. When all eleven players execute their roles correctly, the play works, but if anyone fails, the entire play can fall apart.

"Organizationally, human nature is to be football players, which is you get told what your job is to do and you do it as well as you can. If all 11 people execute their job then a play works out, and if anyone fails then the play could fall apart. A lot of people are very comfortable in owning discrete elements of functions that lead to some higher purpose, and that helps companies operate." - Logan Bartlett

Basketball players, in contrast, operate with general primitives and principles, then execute dynamically based on the situation. This requires more adaptability and autonomous decision-making.

"The flip side of the basketball players are - you give general primitives and then people go out and execute. I find that far more people are comfortable being football players and that they get told their job and it leads to this greater output in some way." - Logan Bartlett

Logan suggests that most people are naturally more comfortable with the football player approach, preferring clear direction and defined roles.

Timestamp: [25:54-27:19]

• Self-reliance is a common limiting belief among high achievers who feel they must solve everything alone despite having supportive teams
• The irony of leadership loneliness: CEOs of 30,000-person companies feel isolated in problem-solving despite universal support
• Shame-driven achievement relies on harsh self-criticism that actually drains 30-50% of available energy
• The critical inner voice operates like an abusive boss, creating inefficiency rather than motivation
• Most of our 60,000 daily thoughts are repetitive and negative, consuming enormous mental resources
• Emotional avoidance often masquerades as complex business problems - identifying the avoided emotion frequently reveals immediate solutions
• Most people prefer "football player" roles with clear job definitions rather than "basketball player" dynamic execution
• Breaking through self-reliance patterns can dramatically unlock team potential and collaborative effectiveness

Timestamp: [21:18-27:19]

People:

• Keith Rabois - Referenced for his "barrels and ammunition" talk about organizational roles and capabilities

Organizations:

• Mayo Clinic - Cited for research on daily thought patterns (approximately 60,000 thoughts per day)

Business Frameworks:

• "Barrels and Ammunition" talk - Keith Rabois's framework about organizational effectiveness and role differentiation
• Football players vs Basketball players - Logan's adaptation of organizational operating styles

Industries:

• Silicon Valley - Referenced in context of personality disorders occasionally found in high-achieving environments
• AI company - Case study context for emotional avoidance limiting problem-solving capacity

Timestamp: [21:18-27:19]

Hudson explains how reducing self-reliance transforms team dynamics in profound ways. When leaders step back from trying to solve everything themselves, several powerful shifts occur that benefit both the leader and the organization.

One key insight is how projection patterns change when leadership becomes distributed rather than centralized around one person.

"Often times when a leader becomes less self-reliant, one of the things they notice is that people can project a lot on a person and they'll project a lot less on a team. If you're my boss I might project dad onto you or bad teacher or whatever, I might rebel against you, but it's harder to do that with a team." - Joe Hudson

This leads to practical changes like rotating meeting leadership, where different team members take turns running staff meetings. This creates a learning culture where team members learn from each other rather than just from the leader.

"You'll notice that they'll start maybe handing the running of their staff meeting to different people in the organization. All of a sudden these folks learn how to run meetings from each other, they're not just having one person run the meeting, and then the meeting culture improves because they're all learning from one another and they're all holding each other accountable instead of one person holding everybody accountable." - Joe Hudson

The psychological impact is significant: when someone fails, they feel like they're letting down the entire team rather than just disappointing one authority figure, which creates stronger motivation and accountability.

Timestamp: [27:26-30:06]

Hudson shares a crucial principle for developing team ownership: leaders should never solve problems that someone in their organization can solve. This philosophy fundamentally shifts the dynamic from leader-as-problem-solver to team-as-problem-solver.

"One of the CEOs I worked with, his mantra for a while was 'never solve a problem that somebody in your organization can solve for you' because that's what empowers people. People want to solve problems, people want to feel like they've been valuable and that they've put something important in front of you." - Joe Hudson

This approach requires restraint from leaders who often know the answers but choose to let others work through the solutions. The result is that team members begin thinking like owners rather than employees.

"You're constantly putting the problems in front of them even if you know the answers. Often you're letting other people solve the problems. When you do that, then they all think like owners." - Joe Hudson

Hudson points out the irony that CEOs often feel alone while simultaneously trying to solve all the problems for their people, rather than having the team solve problems for the CEO.

"Often times you'll hear a CEO of a company feel all alone in it, at the same time they're trying to solve all the problems for these people instead of having them solve the problems for the CEO." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [30:06-31:13]

Hudson identifies the first unique challenge of coaching in the AI world: the unprecedented speed of growth that exceeds anything in business history. This hypergrowth creates constant organizational turbulence that tests human adaptability limits.

"The things that are distinct about their environment - it's growing faster than anything has ever grown ever, period, in business. The hypergrowth is crazy." - Joe Hudson

The rapid pace forces constant organizational changes that humans struggle to handle, even compared to companies historically known for change management.

"Because of hypergrowth inside of a culture, things have to change really rapidly and humans don't do well with change at a slow pace. HP had this whole change management thing way back then, and HP is like snails pace growth compared to what's happening here." - Joe Hudson

In AI research organizations, the speed of change manifests as frequent reorganizations and strategic pivots, creating persistent insecurity among team members.

"If you're inside of an organization, particularly a research organization in any of these companies, things are happening quickly which means reorgs are happening quickly or pivots are happening quickly. Humans feel really insecure when that happens." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [31:46-32:37]

Hudson uses a powerful metaphor to describe the second unique challenge in AI: the entire world is projecting onto AI workers as they participate in what he calls "giving birth to some form of life."

"The entire world is projecting on these people. We're basically giving birth to some form of life - maybe it's not life life, maybe it's life life, who knows - but some version of this intelligent thing we're giving birth to it right now as a society." - Joe Hudson

He emphasizes the inevitability of this technological development, comparing it to being in the final stages of pregnancy.

"You can't not give birth to it by the way. We're ninth semester or trimester, we're third trimester, we're in ninth month. This thing's happening, and if it doesn't happen here it's going to happen in China." - Joe Hudson

The global attention creates a situation where AI workers experience the kind of intense public scrutiny typically reserved for world leaders.

"If you're working in AI right now, you've got like the entire world projecting onto you. It's like you're the president of the United States in some way with all that weird projection happening, and most of these people weren't signing up for that." - Joe Hudson

Hudson compares the varied reactions to the mixed emotions people have about having a baby - some see it as the best thing ever, others fear it will ruin their lives and make them irrelevant.

"Just like a birth, there's some people who are like 'This is going to be the best thing ever, this is going to change my life.' And other people who are like 'This is going to be the worst thing ever, this is going to take all my time away from me and I'm not going to be relevant anymore.'" - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [32:37-34:08]

Hudson reveals a surprising commonality among AI researchers and leaders that contrasts with public perceptions: they are universally caring, sensitive individuals who are acutely aware of the responsibility they carry.

"They're hyper intelligent people and many of them are super sensitive, maybe don't even know it, but they're super sensitive folks. I haven't met one yet - and I've worked with people from all of the companies at high levels - and I haven't met one that's not a sweetheart. I haven't met one that's not that doesn't care." - Joe Hudson

This sensitivity makes the global pressure and criticism particularly challenging for AI workers to handle. Hudson uses a vivid metaphor to illustrate the mismatch between the criticism they receive and their awareness of the situation.

"You've got a whole bunch of people yelling 'Be careful, you got to be careful, what are you doing' with this person who's like three stories up on a tree who's pretty damn aware that they're three stories up on a tree." - Joe Hudson

The implication is that these individuals are already highly conscious of the risks and implications of their work, making external pressure counterproductive and emotionally taxing.

Timestamp: [34:08-34:48]

• Reducing self-reliance changes projection patterns - people project less on teams than on individual leaders
• Rotating meeting leadership creates peer learning and distributed accountability
• The mantra "never solve a problem someone in your organization can solve" empowers teams and creates owner mentality
• CEOs often feel alone while solving problems FOR their teams instead of having teams solve problems for them
• AI companies experience hypergrowth faster than anything in business history, creating constant organizational turbulence
• AI workers face unprecedented global projection and scrutiny, like being "president of the United States"
• The development of AI is inevitable and unstoppable - if it doesn't happen in one place, it will happen elsewhere
• AI researchers and leaders are universally sensitive, caring individuals who are highly aware of their responsibilities
• External pressure on AI workers is often counterproductive given their existing awareness of risks and implications

Timestamp: [27:26-34:48]

People:

• Sam Altman - Mentioned as someone who has gone through Hudson's coaching program

Companies:

• OpenAI - Referenced as a company where Hudson has coached broad teams
• HP (Hewlett-Packard) - Historical example of change management that pales in comparison to AI company growth
• China - Referenced as alternative location for AI development if it doesn't happen in the US

Concepts:

• Change management - Business practice referenced in context of HP's historical approach
• Research organizations - Specific context within AI companies where rapid change creates particular challenges

Geopolitical Context:

• President of the United States - Metaphor for the level of global scrutiny AI workers experience

Timestamp: [27:26-34:48]

Hudson draws a compelling parallel between how society should treat AI developers and how the world supported those fighting in World War II. He advocates for viewing AI workers as people making significant sacrifices to create a better future, deserving of societal support rather than criticism.

"What I'd love to change is if we could be treating the people who are creating AI the way we treated the people who are in World War II. These people are doing a lot to try to create a better future - they may not succeed - but they could really use a ton of support and love." - Joe Hudson

This perspective reframes the narrative around AI development from one of suspicion and fear to one of appreciation and support for those taking on this enormous responsibility.

Timestamp: [34:54-35:21]

Hudson summarizes the consistent characteristics he observes across AI company leaders and researchers, emphasizing their humanity and the burden they carry.

"Those are the things I think generally that I see that they have in common: hyper intelligent, very sensitive people, really really smart, and getting a whole bunch of things projected onto them and this hyper growth with massive change." - Joe Hudson

The pace of change in AI is so rapid that it's literally impossible for anyone to keep up, even for those dedicating their full attention to tracking developments.

"Nobody - I haven't met anybody who can even keep up with how much is changing how quickly. If you spent all your time trying to keep up with the changes of AI, you would not succeed." - Joe Hudson

This creates an environment where even the most capable individuals feel overwhelmed by the rate of technological and organizational evolution.

Timestamp: [35:21-35:53]

Logan explores the limitations of the World War II analogy, noting that the historical conflict had a clear, galvanizing enemy that created universal support and patriotism. He reflects on how this clarity of purpose made societal support easier to mobilize.

"I think in the World War II scenario, inevitably there was a consequence of elected officials that determined there was an evil out there that I think has stood the fullness of time. Maybe less people agree than 5 years ago, but I still think it's pretty universally held that that was an axis of evil, if you will. I wish that was still as consensus as it felt 5 years ago." - Logan Bartlett

Logan acknowledges the erosion of historical consensus but maintains that the World War II context benefited from clear moral lines and a galvanizing external threat.

"There was a galvanizing force and there was an evil that was out there, and so there was inevitably a support and a patriotism and all of that stuff that exists there. I guess this is a little different than that." - Logan Bartlett

The AI development context lacks this clear external enemy, making it more difficult to generate the same level of unified societal support that existed during World War II.

Timestamp: [35:53-37:01]

• AI developers deserve the same societal support and appreciation as World War II participants for their efforts to create a better future
• AI leaders consistently demonstrate hyper intelligence, sensitivity, and deep caring about their work's implications
• The pace of AI change is so rapid that even dedicated full-time observers cannot keep up with all developments
• Unlike World War II, AI development lacks a clear external enemy to galvanize unified societal support
• Historical consensus about moral clarity (like the "axis of evil") has eroded over time, making analogies more complex
• The absence of a galvanizing external threat makes it harder to generate patriotic-level support for AI development efforts

Timestamp: [34:54-37:01]

Historical Events:

• World War II - Referenced as analogy for how society should support AI developers, noting the patriotism and support given to those fighting

Historical Concepts:

• Axis of Evil - Reference to the clear moral enemy that existed during World War II, creating unified societal support
• Elected officials - Referenced in context of determining and communicating the evil threat during World War II

Societal Concepts:

• Patriotism - Referenced as the type of support that emerged during World War II due to clear external threats
• Consensus - Discussion of how historical agreement about moral clarity has eroded over the past 5 years

Timestamp: [34:54-37:01]

Hudson addresses skepticism about AI development by introducing an Eastern philosophical perspective on inevitability and control. He contrasts American thinking, which believes in choosing every aspect of something, with Eastern philosophy's river metaphor.

"There's a nature to think that we as Americans we like to think that we can choose every single aspect of something. In Eastern philosophy there's this kind of thought process of there's a river that's going to go to the lowest ground and your job isn't to try to control the river, your job is to predict where it's going to be and be able to take advantage of it." - Joe Hudson

He applies this philosophy to AI development, arguing that artificial intelligence was an inevitable consequence regardless of who developed it or when.

"Artificial intelligence was an inevitable consequence. Our current government was never capable of creating it, so an elected official or not - and even if it was an elected official there would still be an equal amount of people who were opposed currently as there would be." - Joe Hudson

Hudson reframes the choice not as whether AI should exist, but who gets it first - autocracies or democracies, generous empires or oppressive ones.

"At this point the choice is: who's going to get it first? Is it an autocracy or is it not an autocracy? Is it somebody who is an empire that has been one of the more generous empires ever on earth, or is it one that's clearly not a very generous empire?" - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [37:50-39:18]

Rather than trying to assuage concerns about AI, Hudson identifies a deeper pattern in human psychology around predicting doom. He traces this tendency throughout history, noting that people have been predicting catastrophe since ancient times.

"I have noticed that the people who think that doom and gloom are on the horizon who try to predict the future for doom and gloom - throughout all of history since the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Dead Sea Scrolls were a collection of people who thought that doom was right on the horizon - anybody who looks to predict the future always predicts doom and we've been doing it forever." - Joe Hudson

He explains this pattern psychologically: people who are concerned about the future naturally predict from a place of fear, unless they're business people looking for opportunities.

"The reason that is the case is because you're concerned about the future if you're in fear. So the people who are trying to predict the future are naturally doing it from a place of fear, unless you're one of those businessmen who are looking for the opportunity or business women who are looking for the opportunity." - Joe Hudson

Hudson emphasizes that our perspective on the world is based more on our personal history than on objective reality.

"Part of our perspective on the world is based far more on our history than it is on any kind of reality." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [39:18-40:32]

Hudson gets to the psychological root of AI skepticism by connecting it to personal experiences with untrustworthy authority figures. He guarantees that people who distrust AI have histories of being hurt by those in power.

"The people who are dooming and glooming or saying you have to be careful - let me talk to you about the authority figure in your life that took advantage of their power and didn't treat you well. I guarantee it's in there. I guarantee that perspective comes in part because you've learned authority shouldn't be trusted." - Joe Hudson

He becomes vulnerable by sharing his own pattern of distrusting spiritual teachers, which he traces back to having an alcoholic father.

"I remember those moments in my life where every single spiritual teacher I would not go to - I would read and then I would try to pick apart because they all shouldn't be trusted. By the way, that was an incredibly huge service for me to be able to do that. I remember one of the most potent teachers of mine was a guy named Adya Shanti, and I first looked at his book and there was a picture on the back and I was like 'That guy needs too much attention, he can't be trusted.' I was ready to dismantle any authority at any time as not trustworthy because I had an alcoholic father who wasn't trustworthy. It's as simple as that." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [40:32-41:48]

Hudson's approach to AI skepticism focuses on personal freedom rather than changing opinions about technology. He points out that both compliance with authority and rebellion against it represent forms of being controlled.

"If you don't trust AI in general or anybody in authority in general - first of all great, I have no problem, I don't want you to change that. And how can you grow and learn from that experience? What makes it? How is that controlling your life? If you are doing what an authority says or rebelling against an authority, either one of those things you're still being controlled, you're still the puppet of the authority." - Joe Hudson

He emphasizes that personal freedom is more important than opinions about AI because individual liberation has greater societal impact.

"Let's learn there, let's work about that. I don't really care what you think about AI. I care far more about your personal freedom than I do about AI, because your personal freedom is the thing that's going to make a bigger difference on society than your view on AI." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [41:48-42:29]

• AI development was inevitable regardless of who created it - the choice is who gets it first: democracies or autocracies
• Throughout history, people predicting the future have consistently predicted doom, from the Dead Sea Scrolls to today
• Fear-based future prediction is natural for those concerned about the future, unless they're seeking business opportunities
• Our worldview is shaped more by personal history than objective reality
• Skepticism toward AI often stems from personal trauma with untrustworthy authority figures
• Both compliance with and rebellion against authority represent forms of being controlled
• Personal freedom has greater societal impact than individual opinions about AI technology
• The Eastern philosophy of working with inevitable forces (like rivers) is more practical than trying to control them

Timestamp: [37:08-42:29]

Philosophical Concepts:

• Eastern philosophy - Referenced for the river metaphor about working with inevitable forces rather than trying to control them
• River metaphor - Eastern philosophical concept about predicting and working with natural flow rather than controlling it

Historical Texts:

• Dead Sea Scrolls - Ancient collection of writings used as example of historical doom prediction patterns

Spiritual Teachers:

• Adya Shanti - Spiritual teacher mentioned in Hudson's personal story about authority distrust patterns

Geopolitical Concepts:

• Autocracy vs. democracy - Framework for understanding who controls AI development
• Generous empires - Referenced in context of which type of power structure should develop AI first

Personal References:

• Alcoholic father - Hudson's personal example of authority trauma that created patterns of distrust

Timestamp: [37:08-42:29]

Logan introduces the concept of the hedonic treadmill through a relatable example of how quickly we adapt to amazing technologies and then become frustrated when they don't work perfectly. He references Louis CK's comedy about airplane WiFi to illustrate this human tendency.

"There's a Louis CK standup thing about how amazing WiFi on airplanes are and how quick we were to get pissed off when it doesn't work. It's like you're in the sky and you have access to all the information the world's ever created and you're upset that it's disconnecting every now and then." - Logan Bartlett

Logan admits that despite recognizing the absurdity, WiFi connectivity issues represent his peak frustration in life, demonstrating how the hedonic treadmill operates even when we're intellectually aware of it.

"Nothing is more frustrating than trying to connect to internet WiFi when it's not working right. I literally think that's my peak frustration I've had in my life. Nothing gets my blood boiling more than it. To some extent it's like you get a taste of it and then it gets pulled away from you, and that is almost more painful than to not have ever seen it." - Logan Bartlett

He compares this to addiction patterns, suggesting that experiencing something powerful and then losing access can be more painful than never having experienced it at all.

"I imagine the people that get addicted to heroin - they try this drug and forever their world's altered because they've experienced this thing, and it's almost better to have never known what that is than to have tasted it once and tried to walk away from it." - Logan Bartlett

Timestamp: [42:37-44:26]

Hudson advocates for working with present-moment reality rather than trying to force gratitude or appreciation. He emphasizes that the most powerful transformations happen during periods of change and transition.

"I love gratitude, I think it's an incredibly useful thing, or appreciation, I think it's an incredibly useful thing, but I think it's more useful to work with the thing that's actually there in front of you." - Joe Hudson

He identifies key life transitions as transformation opportunities where people either significantly improve or decline: divorce, having children, starting new jobs, or quitting drinking.

"The most powerful transformations that human experiences, whether good or bad, happen in moments of transformation. People become much better or much worse through a divorce. People become much better or much worse having kids. Every job is this opportunity - you have a new job, you have that moment of tension, it's usually 3 to 5 months of tension of this new job, and you can uplevel or you can decay in those moments." - Joe Hudson

Hudson positions the current AI transformation as a massive opportunity for societal and personal growth.

"We are in a massive opportunity to transform. That's far more done by paying attention to what's happening in the moment, not trying to adjust it but learning from the thing and using it as a mirror." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [45:34-46:57]

Rather than trying to change emotional reactions, Hudson suggests investigating them with curiosity. Using the airplane WiFi example, he demonstrates how to use frustration as a learning opportunity.

"If you're annoyed by what's happening in the plane, then let's start there. Great, I'm annoyed that I don't have this thing, but there's five people on the plane that are trying to use the internet that aren't annoyed by it. What's happening? What makes me the one that's annoyed by it? What makes that they have that freedom and I don't have that freedom? What's going on there?" - Joe Hudson

His approach emphasizes acceptance of current emotional states while investigating them with wonder rather than judgment.

"If you're going to take advantage of the transformation that's available in times of massive change and transition, the way to do it is to look at what's actually happening in the moment and investigate it with a lot of wonder, not with 'I have to be different.' Great, I'm annoyed, I don't need to change that, I can be annoyed if I want to be annoyed, but what's happening? What's going on there?" - Joe Hudson

While maintaining this investigative approach, Hudson still acknowledges the value of gratitude practices as foundational support for transformation.

"With that said, appreciation and gratitude is really really good for transformation as well. If you can have a practice of gratitude, it's amazing to have that ground in your life, and there's always something to be grateful for as it turns out." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [46:57-48:01]

Logan describes the unnatural pace that AI lab companies must maintain due to momentum and opportunity costs, using the metaphor of changing tires while the car is in motion.

"At a business level, the AI labs model companies are forced to operate at a speed, both given the momentum and the opportunity cost, that's unnatural. But it's the game on the field that they have to play, and so you don't get to take a few months to regroup and recalibrate how you're thinking about things. You need to push forward and change the tires while the car is in motion." - Logan Bartlett

He suggests that all businesses would benefit from internalizing elements of this pace, even if not to the extreme extent required by AI companies.

"I think all businesses right now would benefit from internalizing elements of that pace, even if not to the extent that you need to if you're working at an AI model lab company." - Logan Bartlett

Timestamp: [48:12-49:05]

Logan poses a crucial question about how to inject AI lab-level pace and adaptability into traditional businesses before being forced to do so by market conditions.

"I think a lot of companies are going to have to move at that pace. I'm curious, as you've worked with people like Sam, as you've coached people like the different leadership departments within OpenAI or whatever AI lab business - are there any things that you would say to make these companies more of a perpetual motion machine if you're out of the eye of the storm that is AI? How do you inject elements of this into your business if you're not forced to do it? Or before you're forced to do it?" - Logan Bartlett

This question sets up the expectation that most companies will eventually need to operate at AI lab speeds, making it valuable to learn these capabilities proactively rather than reactively.

Timestamp: [49:05-50:00]

• The hedonic treadmill causes us to quickly adapt to amazing technologies and become frustrated when they don't work perfectly
• Experiencing something powerful and losing it can be more painful than never having experienced it at all
• Major life transitions (divorce, having children, new jobs, quitting addictions) are the most powerful transformation opportunities
• Working with present-moment reality is more effective than forcing gratitude or trying to change emotional reactions
• Investigating emotional reactions with wonder and curiosity, rather than judgment, enables transformation
• AI lab companies operate at unnaturally fast speeds, changing direction without time to regroup or recalibrate
• All businesses would benefit from learning AI lab-level pace and adaptability before being forced to by market conditions
• Current AI transformation represents a massive societal opportunity for growth and development

Timestamp: [42:37-50:00]

Comedians:

• Louis CK - Referenced for standup routine about airplane WiFi and how quickly we become frustrated with amazing technology

Psychological Concepts:

• Hedonic treadmill - The tendency to quickly return to baseline happiness despite positive or negative life changes
• Addiction patterns - Referenced in context of heroin addiction as analogy for experiencing something powerful and losing it

Business Metaphors:

• Changing tires while the car is in motion - Metaphor for operating at high speed without time to stop and recalibrate

People:

• Sam Altman - Referenced as someone Hudson has coached in the AI space

Companies:

• OpenAI - Referenced as example of AI lab where Hudson has coached leadership departments

Technology:

• Airplane WiFi - Used as example of technology that demonstrates the hedonic treadmill effect

Timestamp: [42:37-50:00]

Hudson describes implementing a systematic approach to experimentation across organizations, even those with thousands of employees. This represents a fundamental shift from traditional job performance metrics to innovation-based metrics.

"A lot of businesses I'm working in right now we are doing this thing where iteration is required. Your job is to run an experiment every month and the experiment needs to be how do you do your job differently and more effectively. It's just like it's a we have a sheet, it's a job, you have to do it. I'm working in orgs that are 2-3,000 people big where it's just literally one of their biggest objectives is how many experiments you've run." - Joe Hudson

This approach challenges the traditional paradigm where success meant learning to execute a role consistently, like a football player running the same play repeatedly.

"What typically we've been told in our lifetime is that to do a good job you need to learn how to do it, execute the play, you be the football player. You learn that, you do it over and over again, you figure it out and now you're doing it and everybody's happy with you. Now the new job is how do you iterate quickly for everybody." - Joe Hudson

Hudson notes that some roles adapt more easily to this experimental mindset - software engineers and product people are already familiar with iteration, while operations and finance people find it more challenging.

"Software engineers get it because they've been doing this for a while. Some product people get it because they've been doing it for a while, but ops people it's a little harder for them or finance people it's a little harder for them. It's literally 'hey okay this month I want you to use one AI tool to help you do your job better, next month okay what's your next experiment?'" - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [50:07-51:39]

Hudson shares a powerful principle from MIT Media Lab about tackling unknown elements first when building something new. Using the metaphor of building a car with an unfamiliar catalytic converter, he illustrates why people typically approach challenges backwards.

"If you're doing something new for the first time - let's say building a car as an example - you're going to know how to build a lot of that car but there's going to be a part of the car you don't know how to build, let's call it the catalytic converter. What's the first thing most people do? They build the car and then they do the catalytic converter because that's comfortable, emotionally comfortable to do what you know." - Joe Hudson

The problem with this approach is that it inevitably requires rebuilding work that was already completed.

"Instead, I'm actually going to embrace the uncomfortable emotion and I'm going to do the thing that I don't know first. The reason you do that is because you build the car and then the catalytic converter, I guarantee the car will have to be rebuilt to make room for the catalytic converter because you didn't know what the catalytic converter was going to look like." - Joe Hudson

This leads to his core experimental question: "What's the simplest experiment you can do to learn the most about the thing you know the least about?"

Hudson emphasizes that this experimental approach must become everyone's job because AI will affect every aspect of business operations.

"Now that's everybody's job because there is no part of anybody's business that isn't going to be affected by AI. Instead of saying you've done a good job because you performed, it's you've done a good job because you're constantly experimenting and iterating." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [51:44-52:58]

Hudson emphasizes that effective experimentation must be lightweight and rapid, avoiding the trap of over-engineering measurement systems or spending excessive time on individual experiments.

"They need to be lightweight easy, you don't need to spend like decades to figure out the measurement systems. It has to be just very whack whack whack - what's an easy one you can do that you're going to learn this month, this week? Just create a culture of experimentation and innovation." - Joe Hudson

This tactical approach prioritizes speed of learning over perfection of methodology, recognizing that in rapidly changing environments, quick iteration beats elaborate planning.

Timestamp: [52:58-53:23]

Hudson addresses the deeper psychological challenge of operating in unpredictable environments. He explains that traditional sources of safety - predictability and control - are no longer viable in rapidly changing business contexts.

"Intellectually the approach is - you can no longer find safety and predictability, you need to find your safety somewhere else. If you rely on the feeling of safety coming from predictability, you are so... where are you going to get that safety from?" - Joe Hudson

He redirects people toward finding safety in present-moment awareness rather than future predictability.

"Typically the best place for that safety to be found is in the moment - what is it like right now? That's the problem. What is it that makes me think that I can't handle what's coming next? What makes me not be able to rest in that? What are those thoughts? What are those emotions? How do I address those? That's how you find the safety that's beyond predictability." - Joe Hudson

This represents a fundamental shift from external safety (predictable circumstances) to internal safety (confidence in one's ability to handle whatever arises).

"The grand majority of humans find safety in predictability." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [53:23-54:30]

Hudson outlines his approach to working with skeptical leaders, starting with a crucial boundary: he only works with people who have genuine questions and want help.

"If somebody doesn't have a question, I don't have an answer. If there's no question, there's nothing I'm going to do that's going to be useful. There's a great phrase that somebody taught me which is 'if you help somebody who hasn't asked for help, it's like taking on their credit card debt without relieving it for them - you just double the debt.' That's my experience totally." - Joe Hudson

For those who are skeptical but genuinely want change, Hudson employs three specific tactics to build credibility and trust.

Timestamp: [55:01-55:40]

1. Reading Their Beads - Predictive Listening

Hudson's first tactic involves demonstrating insight by listening carefully and then predicting aspects of the person's life based on patterns.

"You listen and then predict their life for them. You listen to everything that they have to say and then you say 'Oh so from what you've told me I'm guessing that your childhood was something like this, your marriage is something like this, your kids think you something like this.' I call it reading their beads - it's a parlor trick, people are really impressed with it, but it allows people to feel safe. Oh if you can figure that out, there's something you know that I don't know." - Joe Hudson

This works because personal development lacks clear expertise hierarchies, unlike technical fields.

"Unlike computer science or unlike research, it's really easy to know in research or physics who knows more than who does, but when it comes to understanding how to be a human, everybody thinks they've got it pretty down pat. You have to actually show some sort of evidence." - Joe Hudson

2. Gödel's Incompleteness in Personal Logic

The second approach involves demonstrating logical limitations in the person's thinking patterns.

"Another way to do it is to show them Gödel's theory of mathematical incompleteness in their own thoughts. You just basically show how their logical structures are incomplete and that there's something beyond logic that's at work." - Joe Hudson

He supports this by referencing the vast difference in information processing between conscious thought and bodily intelligence.

"We as humans get 11 bits of information per second by our brain but like 10,000 or something like that from our body. It's pretty easy to show that there's an intelligence that they can access that's more than their thought process, 'cause the skepticism is often in the thought process." - Joe Hudson

3. The Neuroscience Authority Appeal

The third tactic leverages people's respect for scientific authority, though Hudson finds this approach somewhat problematic.

"The other one is you speak a whole bunch of neuroscience and somehow people just feel like 'oh that's true' - which is ridiculous to me because neuroscience is moving. The neuroscience of 2000 is different than the neuroscience of today and it'll be very different in 30 years or 10 years. But somehow or another you put the word science behind it, people calm down." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [55:52-57:40]

• Traditional job performance (executing consistent plays) must shift to constant experimentation and iteration
• Mandatory monthly experiments should focus on "how to do your job differently and more effectively"
• Organizations should measure success by number of experiments run rather than just task completion
• When building something new, tackle the unknown elements first to avoid costly rebuilds later
• Lightweight, rapid experimentation ("whack whack whack") is more valuable than elaborate measurement systems
• Safety must shift from external predictability to internal present-moment awareness and resilience
• Only work with people who genuinely ask for help - helping the unwilling doubles problems rather than solving them
• Three tactics for skeptics: predictive listening, demonstrating logical incompleteness, and leveraging scientific authority
• Personal development expertise is harder to demonstrate than technical expertise because everyone thinks they understand human nature
• The body processes vastly more information than conscious thought (10,000+ bits vs 11 bits per second)

Timestamp: [50:07-57:40]

Educational Institutions:

• MIT Media Lab - Referenced for teaching the principle of tackling unknown elements first when building something new

Mathematical Concepts:

• Gödel's theory of mathematical incompleteness - Used as metaphor for showing limitations in people's logical thinking structures

Scientific Fields:

• Computer science - Referenced as field where expertise hierarchy is clear, unlike personal development
• Physics - Referenced as field where expertise hierarchy is clear, unlike personal development
• Research - Referenced as field where expertise hierarchy is clear, unlike personal development
• Neuroscience - Referenced as authority appeal tactic, noting how the field rapidly evolves

Business Concepts:

• Football player execution model - Traditional approach of learning and repeating the same tasks consistently
• Catalytic converter metaphor - Example of unknown component that requires tackling first to avoid rebuilds

Information Processing:

• 11 bits per second - Conscious brain information processing capacity
• 10,000+ bits per second - Body's information processing capacity

Timestamp: [50:07-57:40]

Hudson emphasizes that effective leaders possess uncommon self-awareness and that this quality can be developed by paying attention to it. He reveals that every business problem fundamentally stems from a self-awareness problem, making organizations powerful mirrors for personal development.

"Every single business problem you have is a self-awareness problem. You have endless opportunities to look at your self-awareness. The consciousness of the creator is in the creation. The whole organization is a mirror - if the CEO is conflict avoidant, conflict avoidance is going to be in that organization." - Joe Hudson

Hudson describes business as an exceptionally effective tool for self-realization because it provides immediate, undeniable feedback that prevents self-deception.

"Business is such a cool way of having self-realization to understand yourself because you get it reflected and you don't get to fool yourself. I could sit on a mat and meditate for seven years, I could fool myself to no end. I could not fool myself in business - people would be pissed at me, I would be upset I wasn't getting results, all these things were just there." - Joe Hudson

The key requirement is shifting perspective from external blame to internal ownership: recognizing that you are creating your experience rather than being victimized by it.

"You can't think to yourself 'this problem is happening because of them,' you have to think 'this... I am creating this thing, what is it about?' And the first creation is my thought - how does my thought create the world in which I'm existing in?" - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [57:47-1:00:30]

Hudson warns against falling into shame when taking responsibility for business problems. While ownership is essential, shame creates stagnation rather than growth.

"There can't be the shame. Some people go 'all the problems are mine and I'm the problem' and that's shame, and that really is stagnating. If you're in shame there's a lot of stagnation that happens because shame's whole job is to stop you." - Joe Hudson

He explains shame's biological function using concrete examples of how it prevents specific behaviors.

"If you got shamed for crying in public, it's to stop you from crying in public. If you get shamed for farting on the couch, it's to stop you from farting on the couch. Shame just stagnates." - Joe Hudson

The solution is to take ownership without judgment, maintaining curiosity about how one's thoughts and patterns create organizational realities.

Timestamp: [59:49-1:00:30]

When asked whether impostor syndrome is real or symptomatic of something deeper, Hudson provides a counterintuitive response: it's actually a recognition of reality because everyone is an impostor to some degree.

"I think it's a recognition of reality - we are all impostors. Someday one day I was hanging out and there was some guy who was like 'You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, you've made this all up.' And my response was 'Yeah, yeah Jeff Bezos made up Amazon, I'm making this up, and I guarantee I will change my opinion on some of this stuff next year. The question is what's useful to you right now.'" - Joe Hudson

Hudson argues that all humans are fundamentally limited in perspective and understanding, making everyone "wrong" about something.

"We're all impostors. Jeff Bezos is an impostor, you're an impostor, I'm an impostor, and we're all wrong on some level. We do not understand - just the fact that we don't have eyes that see six colors like mantis shrimp means that we are limited in our perspective and we are wrong about something." - Joe Hudson

This perspective reframes impostor syndrome from a problem to be solved to a reality to be accepted and worked with.

"You can't logic yourself out of it because it's real. If you're working on impostor syndrome, working with the reality on the ground is a far more effective way than trying to convince yourself that you're not an impostor, which is what most people try to do." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [1:00:37-1:02:12]

• Self-awareness can be improved by simply putting attention on it - most people just don't focus on it
• Every business problem is fundamentally a self-awareness problem, providing endless learning opportunities
• Organizations function as mirrors reflecting the CEO's consciousness and behavioral patterns
• Business provides better self-awareness feedback than meditation because it prevents self-deception through real consequences
• Taking ownership requires shifting from "this is happening because of them" to "how am I creating this?"
• Shame must be avoided when taking responsibility, as it creates stagnation rather than growth
• Impostor syndrome is a recognition of reality - all humans are limited in perspective and "wrong" about something
• Working with the reality of being an impostor is more effective than trying to convince yourself you're not one
• Even highly successful people like Jeff Bezos are "making it up" and will change their opinions over time

Timestamp: [57:47-1:02:12]

People:

• Jeff Bezos - Referenced as example of someone who "made up" Amazon and is also an impostor despite his success

Companies:

• Amazon - Used as example of something that was "made up" by its founder

Biological References:

• Mantis shrimp - Referenced for having eyes that can see six colors, illustrating human perceptual limitations

Psychological Concepts:

• Impostor syndrome - Discussed as recognition of reality rather than a problem to be solved
• Shame - Explained as biological mechanism designed to stop specific behaviors, causing stagnation

Timestamp: [57:47-1:02:12]

Hudson provides tactical advice for those wanting to begin inner work and self-reflection. His first recommendation is to identify people who have undergone dramatic, recognizable transformation and learn from their specific methods.

"Find somebody who you think, who you have seen change dramatically that you can recognize their change, and then say to them 'what did you do?' and then do it. That has been extremely effective in my life. I've just looked for people who have transformed and said 'what did you do?' and then do it." - Joe Hudson

This approach leverages real-world evidence and proven methods rather than theoretical frameworks, providing a concrete starting point for personal development.

He also emphasizes focusing on emotional development since that's typically the most limiting factor for most people.

"Another very effective approach for most humans is work on the emotional stuff because that's the stuff that's limited. The brain is usually doing just fine." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [1:03:06-1:03:48]

Hudson outlines a structured approach for entrepreneurs to build regular self-reflection into their routine. The key is scheduling dedicated time for this work, similar to how one would schedule exercise.

"If you're an entrepreneur, find a mentor whether it is a coach or whether it's a business person who you admire and get a regular conversation going with them. You need to set up time to reflect. If you say 'I am dedicating this like working out to do self-reflection on myself in the business,' then it kind of happens in the background on a regular basis." - Joe Hudson

Without intentional scheduling, self-reflection rarely occurs naturally in the fast-paced entrepreneurial environment.

"If you don't set aside that very particular time whether it's with a coach or with a mentor or even with your team - let's self-reflect for a minute - we'll teach our CEOs to have the deep self-reflection time with their team." - Joe Hudson

Hudson emphasizes that team-based self-reflection creates exponential organizational benefits beyond individual CEO reflection.

"It's one thing if a CEO is self-reflective, it is something else if a team is self-reflective together. That is like superpower for organization." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [1:04:16-1:05:10]

Hudson provides a specific organizational exercise centered around three powerful questions designed to stimulate creative thinking and self-reflection within management teams.

"The first step I would do is I would ask my management team, if I was a CEO, I would ask my management team or whatever team three questions and have a meeting just around these three questions: 1) What is the thing that we can do that would 2x our results in the next year? 2) What's the thing that would 2x your enjoyment in the company in the next year? 3) And what needs to change about the way you're viewing things for that to happen?" - Joe Hudson

These questions are strategically designed to require both creativity and introspection, forcing team members to think beyond current limitations.

"You're creating a problem statement that requires people to be creative in their thought process and require self-reflection." - Joe Hudson

Hudson recommends dedicating 90 minutes to this exercise and using the results as a diagnostic tool for team capability and culture.

"I would just take an hour and a half meeting and I would start there. If you do not get a whole bunch of really good ideas and self-reflection, then change your management team quickly or change the way that you run them quickly." - Joe Hudson

The exercise serves as both a development tool and an assessment: if the team cannot engage at this level, it indicates either capability issues or fear-based culture problems.

"If your team can't do that level of thinking, they're probably not going to drive success, and/or they're too scared of you to show you their thinking." - Joe Hudson

Timestamp: [1:06:08-1:07:24]

• The most effective way to begin personal development is to find people who have transformed dramatically and replicate their methods
• Emotional development is typically the most limiting factor for most people, not intellectual capacity
• Entrepreneurs must schedule dedicated self-reflection time like exercise, or it won't happen naturally
• Team-based self-reflection creates "superpower" organizational capabilities beyond individual CEO reflection
• Three powerful questions can assess and develop team capacity: 2x results, 2x enjoyment, and required mindset changes
• If management teams can't engage in creative, reflective thinking, they either lack capability or are too fearful of leadership
• Organizational practices require ongoing attention and regular implementation rather than one-time fixes

Timestamp: [1:02:18-1:07:30]

Resources:

• Podcast - Hudson mentions their podcast as a resource for personal development (described as "amazing and has like a hundred and something")
• Leadership newsletter - Referenced as providing regular organizational practices and good for entrepreneurs

Practices:

• Working out analogy - Used to describe how self-reflection should be scheduled like exercise
• 90-minute meeting format - Recommended time allocation for the three questions organizational exercise

Organizational Concepts:

• Management team - Referenced as the group to engage with the three questions framework
• 2x results framework - Specific metric for organizational improvement questions
• 2x enjoyment framework - Specific metric for workplace satisfaction improvement

Timestamp: [1:02:18-1:07:30]